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Ask HN: Any bar owners?

• patrickgzill 16y ago
  If you don't have prior experience you need to find someone who does to help you run it. Licenses vary greatly from state to state. There are a myriad of details to master.
  • eli 16y ago
    Just to amplify, the climate and expense of getting licensed is going to vary by orders of magnitude depending on the location. Here in DC the actual license is a few grand (by the books), but I heard it could cost up to $100k when you factor in all the lawyers you'll need to actually get it approved.
• ryduh 16y ago
  What state are you in? My grandmother's boyfriend is in the process of selling his bar in CA and I bet I could ask him some questions for you.
  • devmonk 16y ago
    Thanks! Post back CA-specific bar info if you have any. I'm not in the market to buy up his bar or equipment yet, though.
• waterlesscloud 16y ago
  My parents bought an existing bar back in 1993, held it for 3 years and sold it in 1996. I managed it for them while completing my CS degree. Licensing is a complex topic that varies considerably by location. By state, and then by county or municipality. Overhead can be relatively low, depending on what you have in mind. You need some basic infrastructure- ice machine, coolers, CO2 systems, etc. Insurance is a bit different for a bar than other businesses, obviously, but not too bad. Inventory is a low cost compared to your cash flow, as is labor since pretty much everyone will be minimum wage plus tips. Maintenance isn't too bad. Basically a well-run bar is a license to print money. You sell drinks for several multiples of your cost of goods. Most bars I knew of that had trouble had it due to owners that didn't know what they were doing, at all, in terms of business, or more commonly had a drinking/substance problem.
  • coatta 16y ago
    I'm curious -- Why did your parents sell the bar after just three years?
    • waterlesscloud 16y ago
      Same reason they bought it, an opportunity too good to pass up presented itself. They bought the bar because the previous owner got himself into trouble with the IRS and had to raise cash in a matter of weeks. So they got a deal. They sold when a well-heeled regular customer of the bar offered them considerably more than anyone else would have. Besides, I was about to graduate college and they would have had to have been more hands-on then. They also had used the contacts they made in the bar industry to set up a network of ATMs that generated a good deal of cash floow with very little work. They make good money from that network to this day.
      • dkokelley 16y ago
        This story makes me happy. There is opportunity out there.
  • bmr 16y ago
    This is a little rosy. Some issues with bars include: (1) 90% of your revenue comes from two nights a week; (2) Given all the cash, employee theft is a real problem; (3) Lose-it-all liability. Think about all the ways drunks can die/seriously injure themselves... and about how you'll get blamed every time. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good investment, but it's hardly a license to print money.
    • waterlesscloud 16y ago
      1- Our revenue was a little more spread out than that. We did certain promotions that boosted us on otherwise off night- Wednesday was about 80% of Friday, and Sunday was our biggest night of the week. It just took a little planning. 2- Yes, which is why I made a good manager, being blood related to the owners. And the employees were watched carefully. 3- I can't recall hearing of a bar losing it all in liability unless they were extremely irresponsible.
• amh 16y ago
  You might find JWZ's experiences interesting: http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/ http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/ Then again, it might scare you off. Maybe it's just that CA is particularly bad, I dunno.
  • krakensden 16y ago
    The DNA Lounge is also a nightclub, which is by all accounts a more difficult industry to be in.
• jonah 16y ago
  JWZ: http://www.dnalounge.com/ http://www.dnalounge.com/ http://jwz.livejournal.com/profile http://jwz.livejournal.com/profile edit: 1) dupe. 2) @netik is involved with DNA lounge too.
• jrockway 16y ago
  jwz does: http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/permits-index.html http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/permits-index.html I think if you peruse his site a bit, there are lots of rants about how difficult it was for him to get this started.
  • mikeryan 16y ago
    I'm pretty sure jwz bought the DNA Lounge as a running business as opposed to starting from scratch. It's also a dance (and other function) club and has a different set of concerns.
    • ax0n 16y ago
      This is true. He bought it, didn't build it from scratch, and he most certainly has concerns above and beyond what the average bar owner faces. Of course, the average bar owner in San Francisco seems to face quite a bit more trouble than a bar owner in many other places in the US, so YMMV.
      • mikeryan 16y ago
        Agreed,many of his concerns came from trying to convert it to an all-ages club. This is very difficult in most areas. He also got screwed by the ABC and is still fighting that fight. SF can be tough on business owners, but his issue with the ABIC is actually a classic sort of SF vs. The Feds sort of issue. In that case SF mostly couldn't care less and generally actually gets pissed when the feds start crap like this. We see similar issues around marijuana busts. Generally SFPD doesn't give a shit about marijuana (in general the SF DA won't prosecute these cases and they if someone does get popped its a misdemeanor), but every so often an overzealous US Attorney comes in and makes an easy, and high profile bust.
      • smackfu 16y ago
        It should make a potential bar owner ask himself how the police feel about the bars in the town though. It only takes one guy to be a pain in your ass.
  • 16y ago
• deleted 16y ago
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• itg 16y ago
  I highly recommend working as a bartender for a bit before thinking about owning one.
  • esun 16y ago
    Owning a bar and being a bartender are two different things. Bartending is a service industry job, while owning a bar is about managing people.
    • olalonde 16y ago
      The point of being a bartender is to get a small glimpse at the inner-workings of a bar.
      • smackfu 16y ago
        And to be able to tell when the bartender is stealing from you.
        • esun 16y ago
          It's so easy and tempting for a bartender to steal that sometimes I catch myself stealing from myself.
• esun 16y ago
  I own a bar, and am using it to fund a new business. It's a great business, if you can get into a popular spot. Only caveat: it takes a lot of discipline to manage large amounts of cash. If you have a problem with drugs or prostitutes, you will fail. It's not your cash... it's next week's payroll, liquor order, rent, etc.
  • olalonde 16y ago
    Out of curiosity, what was your initial capital investment?
    • esun 16y ago
      I put up $15,000 of my own money, and took on about $250,000 in debt.
• d0m 16y ago
  Problem with bar is dealing half with the cops and half with customers that don`t want to pay you back.
  • mahmud 16y ago
    What do you mean pay you back? if you're lending people alcohol, you're doing it wrong.
• d0m 16y ago
  Problem with bar is dealing half with the cops and half with customers that don`t want to pay you back.
• mschwar99 16y ago
  I helped run a large, high volume college bar for around 8 years and then opened and operated my own venture (with partners) for a year or so. Much of the details of your venture will depend entirely on its location. Sticking to advice that will apply no matter where you are: If you have to equip the place from scratch and need to do it on the cheap, find restaurant auctions around your location. Restaurant and bar equipment depreciates at a sickening rate, and they go out of business frequently. You can save well over 70% off of catalog for six month old equipment. Find a local insurance agent and get to know them very well. Don't ever, ever skimp on liability insurance. In my experience far and away most important aspect of operating a bar is the staff that you employ. Obviously they need to be as trustworthy as possible - employee theft is a constant. Much like fighting illegal downloads you will be fighting to minimize it rather than abolishing it. The theft will rarely be in the form of removing money from the register till, but rather in the form of unpaid product. The larger reason that your hires will be important though is because hiring the right people is the most effective form of marketing that you can possibly do. Hiring a staff of well connected, social butterfly waitresses, door guys, and bartenders has an infinitely higher ROI than any print or radio marketing that you can do. Additionally, good employees are perhaps the most important differentiating factor for your business. Unless you are a multi-million dollar Vegas-style theme joint, your business is a commodity. There are already twenty other businesses just like yours. Having employees that are both good at their jobs and eager to establish relationships with your patrons will be key in converting customers to repeat customers. Could type all day, but the last thing that I would add is that as with any new business you will struggle to gain traction. When marketing I always tended to look at my job as one of disrupting traffic patterns. Potential patrons already had their favorite bar and a list of five others on a short list. My job was to get myself on that list, and in order to do that I would have to offer an awfully compelling reason to get them to disrupt their patterns. I would usually use either a heavy loss leader (really cheap drinks) on a typically low revenue night or high profile events (big name band / DJ, fight night, etc). Once I had ac customer in the door and I provide a well executed experience it becomes a numbers play much like PPC advertising in the web world. 50% of the people that tried me out will be back someday, I made it on to the short list of 10% of the new customers, 5% wind up being new regulars.
  • 16y ago
• trop 16y ago
  From talking with a "bar designer": Every bar should have a choke point, that is a place where customers have to squeeze past many other customers. This isn't an annoyance, but an essential part of the experience.
  • johnthedebs 16y ago
    That's really interesting. What's the reasoning behind it?
    • trop 16y ago
      I think brc nailed it... (Sorry to be slow on catching up on thread.)
  • brc 16y ago
    That's interesting. Anecdotal evidence on my part says that a party anywhere will benefit from the same thing. Basically, to get people talking you need to (a) get them drinking and (b) cause them to have close contact that busts their personal space. Big empty rooms kill the buzz. Two different spots with a choke point in between make it rock. Think inside (doorway) outside, or lounge (doorway) kitchen. Even better when everyone has to make the pilgrammage between (ie, toilets, drinks ,etc). I imagine it's for the same reasons. In my single days, I always stood/sat at the bar. You're guaranteed a turnover of people to talk to.
  • roel_v 16y ago
    We should have such a 'bar designer' write an article on the main trick that makes designing bars different from designing other things, that'd be really interesting methinks. Is the guy you talked to a fried/acquaintance? You think you can get him to let up some more tricks ;) ?
• spoiledtechie 16y ago
  I have always been interested in owning a bar as well. Almost did if it wasn't for getting a much better job to come along. Where you thinking about, interested in an investor, what are you actually going to do with this information?
• danbmil99 16y ago
  From a good friend who ran a very trendy bar in NYC several years back, regarding his employees: "If you think they're stealing from you, they're stealing more than you think."
• jabrams 16y ago
  I co-own a nightclub in San Francisco called Slide (www.slidesf.com). I wouldn't recommend you get into this business without experienced partners (which is what I did). That's kind of like one of those people looking for a "technical co-founder" because they have an idea for a consumer web site even though they have no experience working at Internet companies. Between construction and permitting, it took two years to get Slide open. Of course you can open a neighborhood bar on a smaller budget, but there's still a lot of things do deal with like liquor licenses, security, liability issues, safety, staff management, etc. Like any business, success is hard, and is more likely with domain experience. Good luck!
  • jcroberts 16y ago
    You take the time to post an URL to the site for your club, and I take the time to look at it... --I find a useless and unreadable site at the given URL that requires both javascript and Flash. We can probably just agree that I'm simply not your customer, but did you even think about how many potential customers you've turned away by failing to keep things simple and accessible?
    • wake788 16y ago
      He's one of the most famous programmers in the Valley. Pincus and Zuckerberg know him. He doesn't need any exposure; he's just trying to help the OP.
    • roel_v 16y ago
      LOL do you honestly think this is going to make one bit of difference? Flash sites are pretty much standard for all nightclubs, dance/rave parties and related things, I'm quite sure that the audience prefers a shining moving website over 'accessibility'. I'm also pretty sure 95% of the target audience that even bothers to visit the site won't even know that it's a flash site, and they surely aren't going to make the decision on whether or not to visit the club based on whether or not the website is flash or 'plain' html.
      • jcroberts 16y ago
• mattmichielsen 16y ago
  I'm doing some early research into starting a brewery or brewpub in a small town in Michigan. I'm hoping to bootstrap as much as possible, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be taking on at least some kind of loan. Licenses in this area aren't bad. Visit your local City Hall and give your state's Liquor Control Commission (or equivalent) a call.
• phishphood 16y ago
  Licensing is usually state, county and sometime city specific. You will need to check with your local city hall. Usually the distribution of licenses is per capita, i.e. for so many people you can have xx licenses. In Boston you can't get a license unless you legally purchase it on a secondary market or have relatives in the town hall or are prepared to bribe your way through (see Diane Wilkerson case) In Florida, where I operated a restaurant for a bunch of years, it is much easier to get a license if you have a kitchen and do certain percentage of revenues in food sales; the total time to get one from scratch I think was 3 month or so and the total cost was few hundred dollars. Your biggest problems are employee theft and liability issues. Theft usually comes in 3 forms, theft of product, theft of time and outright theft of money. Liability is usually silly lawsuits, I had a cook who fried his elbow in a deep fryer while high, I had slip and falls, I had broken teeth, fights, orgies in a bathroom, etc. If you could - get an experience person and partner with him for first few years, you will be thankful that you did.