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Is it at all possible to explain this to a sober person? One who is neither consciously nor subconsciously afraid of having the illusion removed?

wahern 8y ago
It's no more possible to do that than for a schizophrenic to explain his delusion. The difference between a psychedelic experience and mental delusion is that the former brings a newly found perspective on and (knowingly or unknowingly) appreciation for the "big illusion". The latter usually reflects a degenerative condition and the delusion may never end. Both no doubt lead to fascinating experiences but they're intrinsically non-sense. There are tantalizing connections to be made that are _just_ out of grasp, and always will be. As a child I once had a fever so high that Lego blocks began to fall from the ceiling and stack up around my bed. I ran out of the room before I could be crushed. Also as I child I learned how to lucid dream; only marginally less non-sensical, though at least there's the interplay between conscious thinking and the dream world. I've also befriend a few far-gone schizophrenics over the years; quite fascinating but, again, it's pointless to try to unpack the delusion. For me these personal and recounted experiences _reinforce_ my appreciation for the "big illusion". What bothers me about people who promote psychedelics is that they ignore the utter fragility of the human mind. Most people will come back from their experience but in others it can instigate or hasten mental decline (e.g. schizophrenia, psychological dependency). That may or may not have happened regardless, but if you want to promote self-knowledge, IMO the most important thing to _know_ is how precious and fragile the "big illusion" is, and maybe lead with that. It's sort of like promoting fasting by exclaiming that hunger is awesome. I don't think starving people think hunger is awesome. Fasting isn't a way to learn that hunger is an illusion; it's a way to appreciate what you have and your relationship to it. (I've also experimented with fasting.) I've never taken psychedelics and wouldn't do it recreationally because, frankly, I'm too scared. And it's unnecessary. More power to people who do but it'd be nice if they were less flippant about it.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  > What bothers me about people who promote psychedelics is that they ignore the utter fragility of the human mind. Most people will come back from their experience but in others it can instigate or hasten mental decline (e.g. schizophrenia, psychological dependency). I am apparently very sensitive to THC, because under what seem like mild doses to most people, I feel like I have lost my grip on reality in a deeply uncomfortable way. I have never tried more serious psychedelics due to fear for my safety and sanity. I suspect many people have experiences that feel much more manageable. But I agree with your skepticism about the maximalist viewpoint.
drvdevd 8y ago
Psychedelics produce their effects by modulating certain receptors in the brain and body so as to alter perception until they are broken down through metabolism. We don’t yet fully understand exactly how these alterations work objectively. But they do suggest that our subjective constructions of reality are just that: constructions. So the only illusion to lose is the entire nature of reality: in some sense there is more than one “reality”, as far as your brain is concerned. I think this is the sober, science backed version of this notion and I think it is profound.
yosito 8y ago
Sure. And it's also possible to explain to a homebody who is not afraid of traveling what another country is like, but nothing can replace going there first hand and experiencing life in that place.
gepi79 8y ago
Do not fall for the romantic tales of psychonauts to reach some kind of enlightenment. All these people suffer from psychosis. The human experience of the world (thoughts, vision, audition, pleasure, fear,...) is triggered by the nervous system (including the brain) that reacts on bio-chemistry. Changing the bio-chemistry changes the human experience but gives no super powers. Most likely your thoughts on drugs are less smart but appear smart to you. Similar to other drug intoxications that disturb the normal brain activity and the sober judgement of your thoughts and experience of reality. Granted, some people have been able to solve some of their problems with psychedelics because they are strong destabilizers. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-treat-mental-illness-with-psychedelic-drugs-w470673 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-tr... I am in favor of using psychedelics as last resort medicine under supervision of a medical expert. But I am against the promotions of psychedelics by people who are either lucky (no bad life changing effects for months or years because of drug induced trauma with PTSD or bad neuroplasticity) or suffer already from psychosis.
- simplemts 8y ago
  "Do not fall for the romantic tales of psychonauts to reach some kind of enlightenment. All these people suffer from psychosis." Nothing like a blanket statement in your first sentence to immediately discredit your argument. "All black people... All psychonauts... All Americans..." When you look at it yourself... doesn't it sound stupid to try to argue this way? There are now hundreds of studies showing numerous benefits to psychedelics, from anxiety, depression, OCD, anxiety, Autism, etc. What more evidence and data do you need?
  - gepi79 8y ago
    > "Nothing like a blanket statement in your first sentence to immediately discredit your argument." My opinion is as valid as the opinion of psychonauts. Maybe more so because I do not rave about great insights about the universe or gods or aliens or chakra or kundalini or third eye or old souls; New Age stuff whose proponents are famous for the promotion of altered states (!) by meditation or yoga or drugs. > "There are now hundreds of studies showing numerous benefits to psychedelics, from anxiety, depression, OCD, anxiety, Autism, etc. > What more evidence and data do you need?" All noteworthy (positive) studies are published by medical experts. All medical experts warn against the casual use of psychedelics. They all promote a therapy that might include psychedelics under supervision of a medical expert. Only people who suffer from psychosis defend their delusions as real and important. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychedelicists-so-weird/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychede... http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-psychosis/ http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-psychosis/ https://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personality-long-term.html https://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personalit... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-treat-mental-illness-with-psychedelic-drugs-w470673 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-tr... What more evidence and data do you need?
tpm 8y ago
It is possible to explain this on a few different levels. Though obviously it will make more sense when you actually experience it. For example, if you imagine the brain as a big Bayesian classifier, which is filtering and shaping the inputs through the prior "knowledge", then the psychedelics block the prior and let you experience the inputs in a different way from your sober, usual, daily experience. Now they don't completely block all the priors all the time, so you can consciously understand what's happening. Also, "inputs" don't come exclusively from the external world, they can be your thoughts, memories and so on. And without the priors blocking and shaping them, they re-surface (which is the basis of the name psychedelia) and show themselves in a new light. So you can process them again, in a better way, for example.

wahern 8y ago

It's no more possible to do that than for a schizophrenic to explain his delusion. The difference between a psychedelic experience and mental delusion is that the former brings a newly found perspective on and (knowingly or unknowingly) appreciation for the "big illusion". The latter usually reflects a degenerative condition and the delusion may never end. Both no doubt lead to fascinating experiences but they're intrinsically non-sense. There are tantalizing connections to be made that are _just_ out of grasp, and always will be. As a child I once had a fever so high that Lego blocks began to fall from the ceiling and stack up around my bed. I ran out of the room before I could be crushed. Also as I child I learned how to lucid dream; only marginally less non-sensical, though at least there's the interplay between conscious thinking and the dream world. I've also befriend a few far-gone schizophrenics over the years; quite fascinating but, again, it's pointless to try to unpack the delusion. For me these personal and recounted experiences _reinforce_ my appreciation for the "big illusion". What bothers me about people who promote psychedelics is that they ignore the utter fragility of the human mind. Most people will come back from their experience but in others it can instigate or hasten mental decline (e.g. schizophrenia, psychological dependency). That may or may not have happened regardless, but if you want to promote self-knowledge, IMO the most important thing to _know_ is how precious and fragile the "big illusion" is, and maybe lead with that. It's sort of like promoting fasting by exclaiming that hunger is awesome. I don't think starving people think hunger is awesome. Fasting isn't a way to learn that hunger is an illusion; it's a way to appreciate what you have and your relationship to it. (I've also experimented with fasting.) I've never taken psychedelics and wouldn't do it recreationally because, frankly, I'm too scared. And it's unnecessary. More power to people who do but it'd be nice if they were less flippant about it.

acjohnson55 8y ago
> What bothers me about people who promote psychedelics is that they ignore the utter fragility of the human mind. Most people will come back from their experience but in others it can instigate or hasten mental decline (e.g. schizophrenia, psychological dependency). I am apparently very sensitive to THC, because under what seem like mild doses to most people, I feel like I have lost my grip on reality in a deeply uncomfortable way. I have never tried more serious psychedelics due to fear for my safety and sanity. I suspect many people have experiences that feel much more manageable. But I agree with your skepticism about the maximalist viewpoint.

drvdevd 8y ago

Psychedelics produce their effects by modulating certain receptors in the brain and body so as to alter perception until they are broken down through metabolism. We don’t yet fully understand exactly how these alterations work objectively. But they do suggest that our subjective constructions of reality are just that: constructions. So the only illusion to lose is the entire nature of reality: in some sense there is more than one “reality”, as far as your brain is concerned. I think this is the sober, science backed version of this notion and I think it is profound.

yosito 8y ago

Sure. And it's also possible to explain to a homebody who is not afraid of traveling what another country is like, but nothing can replace going there first hand and experiencing life in that place.

gepi79 8y ago

Do not fall for the romantic tales of psychonauts to reach some kind of enlightenment. All these people suffer from psychosis. The human experience of the world (thoughts, vision, audition, pleasure, fear,...) is triggered by the nervous system (including the brain) that reacts on bio-chemistry. Changing the bio-chemistry changes the human experience but gives no super powers. Most likely your thoughts on drugs are less smart but appear smart to you. Similar to other drug intoxications that disturb the normal brain activity and the sober judgement of your thoughts and experience of reality. Granted, some people have been able to solve some of their problems with psychedelics because they are strong destabilizers. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-treat-mental-illness-with-psychedelic-drugs-w470673 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-tr... I am in favor of using psychedelics as last resort medicine under supervision of a medical expert. But I am against the promotions of psychedelics by people who are either lucky (no bad life changing effects for months or years because of drug induced trauma with PTSD or bad neuroplasticity) or suffer already from psychosis.

simplemts 8y ago
"Do not fall for the romantic tales of psychonauts to reach some kind of enlightenment. All these people suffer from psychosis." Nothing like a blanket statement in your first sentence to immediately discredit your argument. "All black people... All psychonauts... All Americans..." When you look at it yourself... doesn't it sound stupid to try to argue this way? There are now hundreds of studies showing numerous benefits to psychedelics, from anxiety, depression, OCD, anxiety, Autism, etc. What more evidence and data do you need?
- gepi79 8y ago
  > "Nothing like a blanket statement in your first sentence to immediately discredit your argument." My opinion is as valid as the opinion of psychonauts. Maybe more so because I do not rave about great insights about the universe or gods or aliens or chakra or kundalini or third eye or old souls; New Age stuff whose proponents are famous for the promotion of altered states (!) by meditation or yoga or drugs. > "There are now hundreds of studies showing numerous benefits to psychedelics, from anxiety, depression, OCD, anxiety, Autism, etc. > What more evidence and data do you need?" All noteworthy (positive) studies are published by medical experts. All medical experts warn against the casual use of psychedelics. They all promote a therapy that might include psychedelics under supervision of a medical expert. Only people who suffer from psychosis defend their delusions as real and important. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychedelicists-so-weird/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychede... http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-psychosis/ http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-psychosis/ https://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personality-long-term.html https://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personalit... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-treat-mental-illness-with-psychedelic-drugs-w470673 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-doctors-tr... What more evidence and data do you need?

tpm 8y ago

It is possible to explain this on a few different levels. Though obviously it will make more sense when you actually experience it. For example, if you imagine the brain as a big Bayesian classifier, which is filtering and shaping the inputs through the prior "knowledge", then the psychedelics block the prior and let you experience the inputs in a different way from your sober, usual, daily experience. Now they don't completely block all the priors all the time, so you can consciously understand what's happening. Also, "inputs" don't come exclusively from the external world, they can be your thoughts, memories and so on. And without the priors blocking and shaping them, they re-surface (which is the basis of the name psychedelia) and show themselves in a new light. So you can process them again, in a better way, for example.