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In my experience, people who are significantly depressed can't make time in their lives for exercise. One of the indicators that they are coming out of a depres

by dsr_ 8y ago

In my experience, people who are significantly depressed can't make time in their lives for exercise. One of the indicators that they are coming out of a depressive period is that they return to exercise routines that the abandoned on the downslope. So -- I strongly suspect survival bias here. It might even be true that weightlifting is an effective treatment for depression, but it would be awfully hard to get a negative result because you can't get depressed people to do it.

skellera 8y ago
Anecdotal but I did not exercise before and exercise did more than any medications did for pulling me up. It has made me truly believe that a healthy body can help make a healthy mind.
- mpweiher 8y ago
  I find that good exercise (particularly in the evening) helps tremendously with sleep, and that really, really helps with everything else.
- slothtrop 8y ago
  I've had a similar experience, such that at my healthiest my depressive lows are nowhere near what they once were.
- keyle 8y ago
  I completely agree. I've always said that I go to the gym to keep sane.
- brokenmachine 8y ago
  Also anecdotal but I get depressed when I can't exercise (usually because of injury, weather or sickness). The longer that lasts, the more depressed I get. It has a very noticeable effect on me, to the point that honestly I can't understand how people who don't exercise manage to stay above water.
  - XalvinX 8y ago
    You know walking is one of the best forms of exercise, right? Just take a walk.
    - goldenkey 8y ago
      Normal walking is pretty inefficient at tearing muscle fibers or causing any kind of reactive stress response by the body. Low intensity exercise is just a calorie burn and a minor stretch, nothing more.
      - XalvinX 8y ago
        Low intensity exercise increases the heart and breathing rate, helping the body get oxygen to its cells, get rid of toxins, and other benefits of increased circulation. These are all very important for the body and particularly the brain and all other organs.
        goldenkey 8y ago
        I agree with you. But consider the capacity of a healthy individual, now spending 30 minutes or more, focused on a single task. Doing low intensity excercise without doing anything else...is an utter shite use of valuable time. It's just a waste of time that could be spent getting the heart rate higher, the muscles full of blood, etc.. I agree that it's beneficial but barely. Low intensity is good for getting people who don't workout to start lifting their arses a bit. But it has hardly any substantial effects on a healthy individual as compared to lifting or sprinting or jogging.
    - brokenmachine 8y ago
      I do a lot of exercise normally, it's when I'm injured that I get depressed. When I've been injured enough to not be doing other stuff, it's often an ankle or knee injury so I can't go for a nice walk either.
      - XalvinX 8y ago
menacingly 8y ago
That's a great point. After your first paragraph, I thought you were going for the "that's great, but how do they apply it?" angle, which is an important question, but after reading dozens of these studies the survivorship angle had not occurred to me. I think a part of me deliberately designs daily routines and workloads that don't leave room for doing things for myself, and it's a subtle and tricky thing to catch. Once you do, it's clear, but up until that point it all seems organic and just how things ended up.
Fnoord 8y ago
Yes, we'd want a comparison between e.g. medicine, exercise, mindfulness, leisure time (to be spend as seen fit), and "nothing" (ie. more work). Also, does lifting a toddler count? (No sarcasm.)
slothtrop 8y ago
There may be behavioral swings among the depressed. They/we can be rather pragmatic. While I've had instances where I hadn't wanted to do anything all day, I've also been willing and ready to do absolutely anything knowing it would help. This had kicked a long journey optimizing my health and nutrition, among other things. The only holdout is my sleep, which while not atrocious every night, is still inconsistent. Today was a shit day, because I hadn't slept well. My motivation was sapped. I managed to drag my ass to the gym anyway. Maybe a more profoundly depressed version of myself wouldn't have done so, but being in that delicate stage requires a different sort of special attention and time to recover.
- BlackjackCF 8y ago
  Depression also manifests differently in people. My breed of depression makes it so I self-neglect, but in a way that's kind of physically harmful. This means going to the gym, not sleeping, overworking, and not eating correctly. Just kind of terrible emotionally avoidant behavior.
joncrane 8y ago
I'd like to think that this research will lead to insurance covering or subsidizing using a personal trainer, or for special programs to be put into place where an appointment can be made to go work out at the gym, in the same way you can make an appointment with a therapist or a psychiatrist. It's one thing to say to a depressed individual "go lift weights, it will make you feel better." It's another thing to set up a series of appointments that are handled as seriously as medical appointments.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I'm not sure that I entirely agree... I've known several cross-training coaches/trainers that are very good at following up with their clients and getting them to come in. Far beyond what a typical gym will do. It does cost a bit more than the likes of LA Fitness, but in some cases you get what you pay for and others, you just pay more. It's hard to distinguish. I do know that my eating habits have had a lot more effect, and even following a trainer's advice doesn't always work as well as some experimentation and tweaking on one's own. I recently bought a house with a pool... I try to spend an hour a few times a week in there. The motivation is harder at times than others (I'm in Phoenix and it's just not anything resembling pleasant until after sunset). As far as eating goes, when I need an energy boost in the morning (a couple times a month) I will do a Bulletproof Coffee (BPC) with a little flavored stevia (vanilla/caramel). I get the majority of my calories in a huge lunch (mostly paleo/keto minded). And if I haven't hit my macro target for the day, will have a smaller snack/meal 4-5 hours later. No snacking, and no sweet drinks between meals. As long as I don't stray too often (office bagels, muffins, doughnuts etc make it super hard), it's been incredibly effective. Lost about 60# last year.
c3534l 8y ago
This is often true, but there is a certain power to it when your doctor prescribes it and where you, at least temporarily, treat it as medicine. Often times severely depressed people need help doing small things: taking a shower each day, taking a 5 minute walk. But less depressed people or people trying to prevent relapse may be able to keep up a more rigorous schedule.
gwern 8y ago
Attrition is better than you think: > Adherence or compliance was reported in 15 of the 33 RCTs; the mean (SD) adherence rate was 78% (18%). Of the 18 remaining RCTs that did not report adherence or compliance, 2 reported attendance rates, which ranged from 87.5% ^53^ to 94%. ^71^ Of course, they also note that reporting of compliance should be better done and intention-to-treat analysis should either be done or specified to have been done.

by dsr_ 8y ago

skellera 8y ago

Anecdotal but I did not exercise before and exercise did more than any medications did for pulling me up. It has made me truly believe that a healthy body can help make a healthy mind.

mpweiher 8y ago
I find that good exercise (particularly in the evening) helps tremendously with sleep, and that really, really helps with everything else.
slothtrop 8y ago
I've had a similar experience, such that at my healthiest my depressive lows are nowhere near what they once were.
keyle 8y ago
I completely agree. I've always said that I go to the gym to keep sane.
brokenmachine 8y ago
Also anecdotal but I get depressed when I can't exercise (usually because of injury, weather or sickness). The longer that lasts, the more depressed I get. It has a very noticeable effect on me, to the point that honestly I can't understand how people who don't exercise manage to stay above water.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  You know walking is one of the best forms of exercise, right? Just take a walk.
  - goldenkey 8y ago
    Normal walking is pretty inefficient at tearing muscle fibers or causing any kind of reactive stress response by the body. Low intensity exercise is just a calorie burn and a minor stretch, nothing more.
    - XalvinX 8y ago
      Low intensity exercise increases the heart and breathing rate, helping the body get oxygen to its cells, get rid of toxins, and other benefits of increased circulation. These are all very important for the body and particularly the brain and all other organs.
      - goldenkey 8y ago
        I agree with you. But consider the capacity of a healthy individual, now spending 30 minutes or more, focused on a single task. Doing low intensity excercise without doing anything else...is an utter shite use of valuable time. It's just a waste of time that could be spent getting the heart rate higher, the muscles full of blood, etc.. I agree that it's beneficial but barely. Low intensity is good for getting people who don't workout to start lifting their arses a bit. But it has hardly any substantial effects on a healthy individual as compared to lifting or sprinting or jogging.
  - brokenmachine 8y ago
    I do a lot of exercise normally, it's when I'm injured that I get depressed. When I've been injured enough to not be doing other stuff, it's often an ankle or knee injury so I can't go for a nice walk either.
    - XalvinX 8y ago

menacingly 8y ago

That's a great point. After your first paragraph, I thought you were going for the "that's great, but how do they apply it?" angle, which is an important question, but after reading dozens of these studies the survivorship angle had not occurred to me. I think a part of me deliberately designs daily routines and workloads that don't leave room for doing things for myself, and it's a subtle and tricky thing to catch. Once you do, it's clear, but up until that point it all seems organic and just how things ended up.

Fnoord 8y ago

Yes, we'd want a comparison between e.g. medicine, exercise, mindfulness, leisure time (to be spend as seen fit), and "nothing" (ie. more work). Also, does lifting a toddler count? (No sarcasm.)

slothtrop 8y ago

There may be behavioral swings among the depressed. They/we can be rather pragmatic. While I've had instances where I hadn't wanted to do anything all day, I've also been willing and ready to do absolutely anything knowing it would help. This had kicked a long journey optimizing my health and nutrition, among other things. The only holdout is my sleep, which while not atrocious every night, is still inconsistent. Today was a shit day, because I hadn't slept well. My motivation was sapped. I managed to drag my ass to the gym anyway. Maybe a more profoundly depressed version of myself wouldn't have done so, but being in that delicate stage requires a different sort of special attention and time to recover.

BlackjackCF 8y ago
Depression also manifests differently in people. My breed of depression makes it so I self-neglect, but in a way that's kind of physically harmful. This means going to the gym, not sleeping, overworking, and not eating correctly. Just kind of terrible emotionally avoidant behavior.

joncrane 8y ago

I'd like to think that this research will lead to insurance covering or subsidizing using a personal trainer, or for special programs to be put into place where an appointment can be made to go work out at the gym, in the same way you can make an appointment with a therapist or a psychiatrist. It's one thing to say to a depressed individual "go lift weights, it will make you feel better." It's another thing to set up a series of appointments that are handled as seriously as medical appointments.

tracker1 8y ago
I'm not sure that I entirely agree... I've known several cross-training coaches/trainers that are very good at following up with their clients and getting them to come in. Far beyond what a typical gym will do. It does cost a bit more than the likes of LA Fitness, but in some cases you get what you pay for and others, you just pay more. It's hard to distinguish. I do know that my eating habits have had a lot more effect, and even following a trainer's advice doesn't always work as well as some experimentation and tweaking on one's own. I recently bought a house with a pool... I try to spend an hour a few times a week in there. The motivation is harder at times than others (I'm in Phoenix and it's just not anything resembling pleasant until after sunset). As far as eating goes, when I need an energy boost in the morning (a couple times a month) I will do a Bulletproof Coffee (BPC) with a little flavored stevia (vanilla/caramel). I get the majority of my calories in a huge lunch (mostly paleo/keto minded). And if I haven't hit my macro target for the day, will have a smaller snack/meal 4-5 hours later. No snacking, and no sweet drinks between meals. As long as I don't stray too often (office bagels, muffins, doughnuts etc make it super hard), it's been incredibly effective. Lost about 60# last year.

c3534l 8y ago

This is often true, but there is a certain power to it when your doctor prescribes it and where you, at least temporarily, treat it as medicine. Often times severely depressed people need help doing small things: taking a shower each day, taking a 5 minute walk. But less depressed people or people trying to prevent relapse may be able to keep up a more rigorous schedule.

gwern 8y ago

Attrition is better than you think: > Adherence or compliance was reported in 15 of the 33 RCTs; the mean (SD) adherence rate was 78% (18%). Of the 18 remaining RCTs that did not report adherence or compliance, 2 reported attendance rates, which ranged from 87.5% ^53^ to 94%. ^71^ Of course, they also note that reporting of compliance should be better done and intention-to-treat analysis should either be done or specified to have been done.