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Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece
- mkempe 8y agoNaming themselves "North Macedonia" kind of implies that they are strongly connected to the other three Macedonia (administrative) regions of Greece (Western, Central, Eastern). The reason they're not going to join Greece is that there are no ethnic Greeks there, so why not call themselves Slav Macedonia instead? [added after downvotes] what is wrong with asking why "North" is the chosen distinction? it seems that the more substantial distinction is the slavic vs greek culture and population when one considers the four regions that use the name "Macedonia"!
- whatever1 8y agoBecause their main goal is to differentiate as much as possible from Bulgaria.
- mkempe 8y agoI could understand them wanting to mark their differences from Serbia, but Bulgaria was the reference point for the emergence of Macedonian nationalism when the Ottomans were pushed out. Do you have references for such anti-Bulgarian sentiment?
- whatever1 8y agoQuoting Wikipedia [1]: "The Balkan Wars (1912–1913) and World War I (1914–1918) left Ottoman Macedonia divided between Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania and resulted in significant changes in its ethnic composition. The immediate effect of the partition of Ottoman Macedonia were the nationalistic campaigns in areas under Serbian and Greek administration, which expelled Bulgarian churchmen and teachers and closed Bulgarian schools and churches. As a consequence a sizable part of the Slavic population of Greek and Serbian Macedonia fled to Bulgaria or was resettled there by virtue of a population exchange agreements. The Bulgarian population in Vardar Banovina was regarded as "Southern Serbs" and a policy of Serbianization was implemented. Within Greece, the Southern Macedonians were designated "Slavophone Greeks". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Bulgarians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Bulgarians
- interdrift 8y agoWell, I'm Bulgarian, there's much hatred as they like to call us tatars and all kinds of things. Not really very nice, considering they have the same genes as ours, same names, same language(except for a few serb add-ins). Also, they would rather be absorbed by Albania, than join their blood brothers :)
- Keyframe 8y agoWhen you generalize like that, who do you refer to when you say 'they'? I've been there last year and I saw a lot of ethnic albanians and met A LOT of people with greek surnames.
- interdrift 8y agoWell, I can only say that we have 95% the same language with a few letters inserted by the serbs. If you look at both greek and albanian languages it's easy to see that they are VERY different than ours. Now, whoever tries to convince you otherwise, is wrong and it's not hard to conclude that given this language similarity and no nearby such similarity it's easy to figure out their origin :)
- Keyframe 8y agoI don't know. It seems to be dangerous to paint broad strokes like that. My immediate heritage is german, italian and croatian and am from Croatia, speak croatian and live there/here. Yet, I understand 90% of macedonian and probably 70% of bulgarian without ever learning either language. Where is the line then? Since I was born here and learned this language as my first, yet not anyone from my family (grandparents and beyond) is from here... is my origin then same as yours or what? It's a dangerous path. For example, whole region was Rumelia for 502 years up to about 150 years ago, capital was in Sofia (if I remember correctly). Are you all Turkish then? Even people that settled there after Rumelia was gone, but understand the language (as their first)? Where does one define clear lines and be so confident in things like that? It's not that simple.
- 8y ago
- salex89 8y agoSerb here, not sure why would anyone "mix up" macedonians and serbs in any context, and why is a bigger differentiation necessary. Even in the bloodiest years on the Balkans, the relations were very reasonable. Today in Serbia, even the most nationalistic groups (of any kind of influence), don't take Northern Macedonia in discussion. The relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia were a bit more bumpy, I don't know all of the details, but Bulgarians* consider(ed) Macedonians just as a part of their own and their language as a dialect. Serbian and Macedonian languages are far to different for that. Yes, we can understand each other with some trouble, but that is no where near like Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian which at times sound identical. The only issue is the conflict between the Serbian and Macedonian Orthodox churches, but that really does not have effect on anything else than themselves.
- Keyframe 8y agoIt's maybe important to note that these disputes (and possible disputes) with Bulgaria, Greece and maybe(?) Serbia have almost none impact whatsoever on the daily lives of anyone in the region there. No animosity, no nothing basically apart from politically organised rallies here and there. Situation with albanians on the other hand... is interesting.
- salex89 8y agoAbsolutely. I mean, there are all sorts of fruitcakes all around the Balkans, but in general, things do carry on peacefully. A lot of political points are gathered on everyday stupidities between Serbian and Croatian politicians, to be honest, but that is another story. The situation with Albanians in Macedonia is disconcerting, at least from a Serb's perspective. It is just too easy to notice a pattern of behaviour, incidents and evenrs, and almost threatening stance, even in some comments here regarding the Albanian majority in Macedonia. Serbia has been through that and handled it poorly, and I'm afraid that Norhtern Macedonia is on the same slippery slope.
- Keyframe 8y agoMaybe people don't remember, but there was an actual armed conflict within Macedonia only 17 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_insurgency_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_insurgency_in_the_Republi... which ended with the Ohrid Agreement which current prime minister of Macedonia, Zaev, said to annul and introduce albanian as the second official language in the (North) Macedonia. That's the real situation at hand in Macedonia now (and then). What situation with Greece did was to inhibit Macedonia's accession to NATO (and EU) which would reduce the threat of reopening possible future armed conflicts. Interesting times ahead for North Macedonia, that's for sure.
- miopa 8y agoNo, Slav Macedonia was acceptable to us. But not to the Albanians, and we changed our constitution in 2001 to allow them to veto this kind of things (under strong US/NATO pressure).
- salex89 8y agoI can only guess because around a quarter of the population is Albanian, and they currently (and probably will also in the future) constitute the parliamentary majority. The Albanian population is currently in a surge, and Albanians don't really like to be mixed up with Slavs...
- stoic_beard 8y ago"Around a quarter of the population is Albanian" - is this also your educated guess, or something you "read" online? The FACT is that the last Census was done in 2002. According to conservative estimates pulled from the Health Ministry, there are less than 20% of Albanians currently residing on the territory of Macedonia. And a little free lesson in history for you: The Slavs you are referring to, in the 6th century did in fact invade and conquer present day Macedonia and whole of Greece, all the way down to Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians stated that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians".
- albinary10 8y agoAccording to the 2002 Census, 46.5% of the children aged 0–4 were Muslim. Macedonians will be minority very soon. It might come a time when this country will be called Eastern Albania. Given the extreme nationalism of the Macedonians I do not think this country will resist history very long in this configuration. And if they do not accept the Albanians and do not live in peace with them they will be soon a tiny joke country.
- stoic_beard 8y agoBy your bias and derogatory comment, it is evident that you lack a very basic understanding of the weight and proud nature Macedonians and Albanians feel as people, as neighbors, and as individuals. Having grown up with Macedonian-Albanian friends, to this day, we both have respect for each others traditions. The common people living in Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic background, want one thing, and that is: peace and prosperity. Not war, nor divide, and not putting down, one another. The conflict of 2001 is still a fresh reminder what can happen, where KFOR and NATO had to rescue the terrorist cowards surrounded by the Macedonian military. This is a fact. Define "extreme nationalism", I challenge you. Macedonians are all people born in Macedonia. Everyone else, is a tourist, on a tourist visa. Therefore, calling one self Albanian, while born in Macedonia is the same as a person of African descent born in the US, calling him/her self African, instead of African-American. See how what you "think" makes no sense.
- pavlov 8y agoShould Massachusetts change its name because the Massachusett people are not an ethnic majority there? Just like US states, most European borders are not drawn according to ethnic groups, and their names are similarly historical rather than descriptive. The nation state is a 19th century fantasy.
- mkempe 8y agoAre there three other "Massachusetts"-named states bordering the current Massachusetts? [edit] Maine is not called "North Massachusetts". As for your belief that European borders are unrelated to ethnic/cultural distinctions, do you know much about Europe? [edit: blocked from replying] Were there truly no pre-19th century differences between the peoples and cultures in Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia? and no-pre 19th century differences between the languages and cultures of France, Spain, and Italy? [edit2] yes, being unable to quickly "reply" makes it difficult to converse in HN :-). [edit3] France is named after the Franks. Sweden (Sverige) after the Svea people. Finland/Suomi after the Finns. Russia after the Rus. Etc. Each of these has an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural core predating the 19th-century nation states.
- pavlov 8y agoThat was in response to your suggestion of “Slav Macedonia”. But there’s certainly a “California” both in the USA and Mexico and it’s not confusing anyone. I was born in Finland and have also lived in France. (Edit: I see you replied to me by editing the parent post, but it makes the conversation impossible to follow if we both do that.)
- TheForumTroll 8y ago>But there’s certainly a “California” both in the USA and Mexico and it’s not confusing anyone. Because one is called California and the other is Baja California.
- stereo 8y agoThere’s a Luxembourg province in Belgium, right next to the country Luxembourg. Nobody gives a damn.
- kovach 8y agoNorth Macedonia is probably the only solution that can pass a referendum vote.
- neonate 8y agohttp://archive.li/a9rda http://archive.li/a9rda
- chadash 8y agoThis is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Republic of Macedonia's name implied that it had territorial ambitions for parts of Northern Greece. As a compromise, the country will now be called North Macedonia.
- cautionarytale 8y agoIf a Canadian state decided to rename itself Maine, pretty sure Americans would have zero f*s to give about it. To quote Peter Griffin, "Who cares?!!".
- DrScump 8y agoOr as attributed to Al Capone: "I don't even know what street Canada is on."
- pavlov 8y agoInstead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.
- JumpCrisscross 8y agoI have been to Northern Greece. I have friends from Macedonia. This is the stupidest international dispute I think our reality can support.
- lvoudour 8y agoIt's the Balkans: disputes may seem inane to an external observer but they last generations and usually end up in (or perpetuated by) wars. It's the first time since I can remember where a dispute is resolved peacefully, without huge external pressure. I don't know how long it's going to last but to be honest it was a prime example of ostrichism on our part (I'm Greek btw). Not that the other side didn't partake in kitsch demonstrations of nationalism, but at some point we should have taken cue from the rest of the world that called the country Macedonia and moved on, rather than pretend the matter is not de facto over and behave like a stubborn child
- LeifCarrotson 8y agoOh, my sweet summer child. Your innocence is so beautiful. Never underestimate the degree of stupidity our reality can support.
- dang 8y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. Also please don't make disagreements personal.
- cmurf 8y agoCan't be that bad. No dead people.
- macintux 8y agoFairly certain this is, strictly speaking, inaccurate. As I recall Greece's unhappiness with (North) Macedonia led to some coordination challenges wrt things like the flood of migrants from the Middle East. I'd wager there were fatal consequences from this dispute.
- 8y ago
- minikites 8y agoThis is a great (but now dated) video covering the history of the dispute between Greece and North Macedonia and it reviews some of the reasons why it was disputed for so many years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWgq48jPgP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWgq48jPgP8
- hristov 8y agoThey should change their name to Western Bulgaria. It will be more accurate and Bulgarians won't mind.
- Keyframe 8y agoI'm quite sure macedonians would consider that statement offensive and disrespectful.
- reaperducer 8y agoIf they're offended, they can be speak for themselves. They don't need an outsider being proxy-offended for them.
- Keyframe 8y agoI saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you've said. I don't have to be 'them' to know that. Take it as you will.
- reaperducer 8y agoI saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you've said. I said nothing offensive. You're so interested in SJW-championing other people's causes to make yourself feel morally superior that you didn't even bother to notice that I'm not the OC. Take it as you will. I don't need your permission.
- Keyframe 8y agoI'm glad you know me so well, we should hang out. Then we can talk about my involvement with macedonian (and bulgarian and greek) people, historians, politicians, film workers and 'common people' over the past few years while I was working on a TV series regarding the topic we are currently discussing. Can't wait to tell you about albanian position within republic today and how that story trumps over what we're talking about here, regarding Greece and even Bulgaria. Also, how important Macedonia (as an entity) is to the whole region and how key people and things developed there which influenced world politics. How special relations Bulgaria has with Macedonia (VRMO for example, which is key to Bulgaria and where M stands for Macedonia) and lots of other interesting things.
- Keyframe 8y agoFor anyone interested, wikipedia has a surprisingly in-depth account of the whole ordeal over the years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
- vermontdevil 8y agoWell at least it’s clearer than Outer and Inner Mongolia.
- smolsky 8y agoHere in the Bay Area there is a smaller scale issue of the same kind between Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. In this case the former does not like the latter to have anything similar in its name... oh well.
- DrScump 8y agoThe latter name is just nonsensical -- EPA is northwest of PA and in a different county altogether. When the Four Seasons opened in EPA, they initially gave the address as just "Palo Alto" but with the proper EPA Zip code, knowing that the USPS would still deliver the same. Media later called them on it.
- gumby 8y agoIs this the real reason for Brexit: that it was intolerable to have "Bretaigne" and "Great Britain" next to each other in the EU?