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Lately, all this media attention to psychedelics reminds me of this Terence McKenna quote: "[W]hy this[psychedelics] is not four-inch headlines on every newspa

• pmoriarty 8y ago
  "[W]hy this[psychedelics] is not four-inch headlines on every newspaper on the planet" Psychedelics might reveal to you that the neat little reality that you thought you had all figured out is a lot stranger and different from from what you thought it was, that your understanding of it might be all wrong, and that your place in it might not be all that cozy and secure. The experience could put everything in to question for you. A lot of people feel threatened by that, so they try to push it away, lock it up, turn it off, or dismiss it. Contrast that reaction to that in some other societies with a long tradition of psychedelic use. Psychedelic experiences there usually confirm the world view of the society, and tend to be very positive and accepted.
  • cyberpip 8y ago
    Another Terence McKenna quote I'm reminded of! "The British enzymologist, J. B. S. Haldane in the 1920s, in an essay, said, "The universe may not only be stranger than we suppose; it may be stranger than we can suppose," and I suggest to you that as we look back over human history, every pinnacle of civilizationf whether it be Mayan or Greco-Roman or Song dynasty, has believed that it was in possession of an accurate description of the cosmos and of man's relationship to it. This seems to go- this seems to go along with the full flowering of a civilization. But, from the point of view of our present civilization, we regard all those conceptions as, at worst quaint, at best half right, and congratulate ourselves that our civilization, at last, has its finger on the real description of what is going on. " from https://www.asktmk.com/talks/Psychedelic+Society?query=stranger%20than%20we%20can%20suppose https://www.asktmk.com/talks/Psychedelic+Society?query=stran...
    • maxerickson 8y ago
      None of the earlier ones had lasers though.
    • yosito 8y ago
      Eh, I'm not saying we have a full picture of what's going on, but the scientific method is much more effective at helping us arrive at a real description of what is going on than any arbitrary religion of the past.
      • perfmode 8y ago
        So we believe, for now.
      • GuiA 8y ago
        The scientific method is the most important tool that humanity has ever developed, without question. That being said, the belief that the scientific method can build up arbitrarily accurate models of any observable phenomena is without foundation, yet some behave as if it is obviously true. Until we have something like a unified model of physics, there is no reason to believe that statement to be true. (and in fact, the scientific method has led to results like Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, which makes it perhaps more likely for it to be false)
        • mythrwy 8y ago
          I question that the scientific method is the most important tool humanity has ever developed. Maybe numbers and language (especially written) are more important. Oh ya, and fire. But the scientific method is way up there in important, no argument there.
      • dalbasal 8y ago
        Mmm. I don't disagree, but I do think it's possible to overstate these things too. The scientific method is extremely effective at getting scientific answers to scientific questions. Often though, we try to (or pretend we are applying this method to achieve unscientific questions (a la Karl Popper's criticisms of Scientism) or try to add up scientific answers in an unscientific way. When we do that, we are using the (well earned and underappreciated) cultural authority of science in ways that do not promote truth seeking.
  • bernardino 8y ago
    > A lot of people feel threatened by that, so they try to push it away, lock it up, turn it off, or dismiss it. You hit the nail right on the head. It reminds me about how we want and need security, particularly around our beliefs. What I think is true in that regard is what Adyashanti, a spiritual teacher, once noted: "The magical part is that the more you let go, the better it feels. The more you step into insecurity, the more you notice how secure and safe it is. Where you just stepped out of was unsafe. Everyone is so miserable because they seek security in things that are limited and always moving and changing unpredictably."
    • taneq 8y ago
      I've always felt that this philosophy, and others like it, ultimately boil down to "you're going to lose no matter what, so try not to care about the game."
      • b6 8y ago
        That's really not it at all. Have you heard the story "who knows what's good or bad"? Something happens, and we judge it good and feel good about it. Then something else happens, and we judge it bad and feel bad about it. And so on. Our feelings are put on a roller coaster according to our judgements. But we don't have enough information to judge anything good or bad. It always remains to be seen. Deeply internalizing this results in equanimity.
        • taneq 8y ago
          There are plenty of things that are pretty unequivocally good or bad. When we anticipate one of these things happening, our emotions change accordingly and this helps to guide our actions in avoiding or encouraging the thing in question. That's what emotions are for. If you have any control over the course of events that affect you, you should experience an emotional response. Anything else just seems like learned helplessness.
          • b6 8y ago
  • Ntrails 8y ago
    > Psychedelics might reveal to you that the neat little reality that you thought you had all figured out is a lot stranger and different from from what you thought it was, that your understanding of it might be all wrong, and that your place in it might not be all that cozy and secure. Distorting perception doesn't reveal truth, it simply allows you to experience something "other" than reality. It's not that this is bad, but I don't accept that it offers enlightenment or wisdom.
    • cyberpip 8y ago
      I'd argue that it allows you to experience a _different_ reality, which, when juxtaposed against the collectively agreed upon reality we all live in, offers insights. Though I'd be skeptical of anyone claiming enlightenment, I do believe some wisdom is possible, if not just very useful insight.
      • Ntrails 8y ago
        I'd need some argument for it being a different reality. Brain in a jar/The matrix style VR perception altering technology could make me experience a different world - but it wouldn't be reality. I actually could still see this resulting in wisdom under certain circumstances, so I guess I have to cede that actually :)
  • bencollier49 8y ago
    Unfortunately, certain psychedelics have the effect of imbuing everything with significance, which results in apparently "earth shattering" revelations during an experience which later turn out to be dross. Unfortunately in some cases people carry on believing the dross. It's like hearing a song or a joke in a dream which seems really beautiful or funny, and turns out to be utterly dull when you wake up and replay it. So sure, altered perceptions give the lie to some of our assumptions about the world, and can lead to some interesting insights, but they also add a lot of new assumptions which are not healthy, and certainly aren't adapted to functional life in the non-psychedelic world.
    • cyberpip 8y ago
      I'd agree that it does make everything seem significant, at least for a period, but it's what comes after that has significance, after a period of integration. It creates an ability or a moment to come at a problem from a new angle, previously closed off to a person due to their established thinking patterns and past experiences. I think the important thing to consider here is that if a person goes into these experiences with a goal, it's likely they will gain new insight on that goal, at least from my experiences. Curious though, what kind of new assumptions do you consider unhealthy?
      • bencollier49 8y ago
        I'd say persistent relations between unrelated ideas, magical thinking and schizotypal behaviour. Also potentially, fixation on "new perspectives" which might not actually be optimal. That said, I largely agree with your perspective as well: "The opposite is also true".
  • taurath 8y ago
    > "Psychedelics might reveal to you that the neat little reality that you thought you had all figured out is a lot stranger and different from from what you thought it was" Or for people that are severely depressed, that your broken reality and thought loops that are deeply ingrained can actually be healed without a major neuronal shift.
• psyc 8y ago
  Psychedelics punch through the big illusion, as in maya. They give the game away. I feel people are subconsciously and collectively terrified of this.
  • taneq 8y ago
    Well they should be. Lovecraft was right, human minds aren't well equipped to handle the true nature of the universe.
  • s-shellfish 8y ago
    Is it at all possible to explain this to a sober person? One who is neither consciously nor subconsciously afraid of having the illusion removed?
    • wahern 8y ago
      It's no more possible to do that than for a schizophrenic to explain his delusion. The difference between a psychedelic experience and mental delusion is that the former brings a newly found perspective on and (knowingly or unknowingly) appreciation for the "big illusion". The latter usually reflects a degenerative condition and the delusion may never end. Both no doubt lead to fascinating experiences but they're intrinsically non-sense. There are tantalizing connections to be made that are _just_ out of grasp, and always will be. As a child I once had a fever so high that Lego blocks began to fall from the ceiling and stack up around my bed. I ran out of the room before I could be crushed. Also as I child I learned how to lucid dream; only marginally less non-sensical, though at least there's the interplay between conscious thinking and the dream world. I've also befriend a few far-gone schizophrenics over the years; quite fascinating but, again, it's pointless to try to unpack the delusion. For me these personal and recounted experiences _reinforce_ my appreciation for the "big illusion". What bothers me about people who promote psychedelics is that they ignore the utter fragility of the human mind. Most people will come back from their experience but in others it can instigate or hasten mental decline (e.g. schizophrenia, psychological dependency). That may or may not have happened regardless, but if you want to promote self-knowledge, IMO the most important thing to _know_ is how precious and fragile the "big illusion" is, and maybe lead with that. It's sort of like promoting fasting by exclaiming that hunger is awesome. I don't think starving people think hunger is awesome. Fasting isn't a way to learn that hunger is an illusion; it's a way to appreciate what you have and your relationship to it. (I've also experimented with fasting.) I've never taken psychedelics and wouldn't do it recreationally because, frankly, I'm too scared. And it's unnecessary. More power to people who do but it'd be nice if they were less flippant about it.