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Embedded dev here. Using C/C++ for embedded systems external communications feels like building a house out of matches. Sure, there's tooling to help fire pro

Embedded dev here. Using C/C++ for embedded systems external communications feels like building a house out of matches. Sure, there's tooling to help fire proofing things a bit, like static analysis and so on. You see, it's important to spray some fire retardant on the match house. But wouldn't it be so much nicer to have a construction material other than matches for this purpose...

pjmlp 8y ago
Maybe stuff like this? https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic32 https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic32 https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2018/march/mita.php https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2018/ma...
- taneq 8y ago
  IEC 61131-3 Structured Text [1] is very similar to Pascal if you're more on the industrial / electrical side rather than 'real' embedded dev, quite a few PLCs support it these days and it's a fair compromise between safety and expressiveness. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_text https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_text
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Quite cool, thanks for point it out.
  - berti 8y ago
    Unfortunately a large portion of the language spec is optional so it's not portable between PLC manufacturers, and implementation quality varies significantly. Source: it's my dayjob. :(
w_t_payne 8y ago
AutoSAR? or Ada? Actually, does anyone know if FORTRAN is ever used for embedded applications?
- tjalfi 8y ago
  RTF/68k [0] is a extended Fortran 77 for embedded systems based on the 68k. It was used for a fair number of control systems in the 1980s and 1990s. [0] https://webhome.weizmann.ac.il/home/fhlevins/RTF/RTF-TOC.html https://webhome.weizmann.ac.il/home/fhlevins/RTF/RTF-TOC.htm...
ranit 8y ago
So, which language or tool would you recommend?
- vardump 8y ago
  Rust looks quite promising. Currently limited microcontroller architecture support is one of the biggest issues with it. Rust based RTOS would also be helpful for medium size devices. Of course small devices are fine on bare metal.
  - v_lisivka 8y ago
    There are some projects, for example [1],[2], but they require nightly compiler, i.e. they cannot be used in production yet. [1]: https://github.com/tock/tock/blob/master/doc/Getting_Started.md https://github.com/tock/tock/blob/master/doc/Getting_Started... [2]: https://github.com/hashmismatch/freertos.rs https://github.com/hashmismatch/freertos.rs
  - iainmerrick 8y ago
    If you don't use Rust yet, what do you use right now? I would have guessed C or C++. Maybe they're not great for the purpose but they're also just about the only game in town, no?
    - vardump 8y ago
      Mostly C. While C++ is easier to write, for very low level code, it is harder to maintain when you need to understand all of the side effects to maintain code safety. C++ compiler support is also sometimes not available. (And of course it's very like there'll be no Rust compiler available either in this case.)
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  Rust looks promising, but it is not ready yet. I use it on iMX6, which is relatively powerful system, but on NRF52 we still use C. Maybe I will use it on NRF52 when support for bare hardware metal will be in stable (working group[1] is working on that). [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg
taneq 8y ago
I've done a fair bit of embedded stuff with C++ and I completely agree. I've been watching Rust quite closely in the hopes that it's suitable for embedded development by the time my next round of projects comes up.

pjmlp 8y ago

Maybe stuff like this? https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic32 https://www.mikroe.com/mikropascal-pic32 https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2018/march/mita.php https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2018/ma...

taneq 8y ago
IEC 61131-3 Structured Text [1] is very similar to Pascal if you're more on the industrial / electrical side rather than 'real' embedded dev, quite a few PLCs support it these days and it's a fair compromise between safety and expressiveness. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_text https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_text
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Quite cool, thanks for point it out.
- berti 8y ago
  Unfortunately a large portion of the language spec is optional so it's not portable between PLC manufacturers, and implementation quality varies significantly. Source: it's my dayjob. :(

w_t_payne 8y ago

AutoSAR? or Ada? Actually, does anyone know if FORTRAN is ever used for embedded applications?

tjalfi 8y ago
RTF/68k [0] is a extended Fortran 77 for embedded systems based on the 68k. It was used for a fair number of control systems in the 1980s and 1990s. [0] https://webhome.weizmann.ac.il/home/fhlevins/RTF/RTF-TOC.html https://webhome.weizmann.ac.il/home/fhlevins/RTF/RTF-TOC.htm...

ranit 8y ago

So, which language or tool would you recommend?

vardump 8y ago
Rust looks quite promising. Currently limited microcontroller architecture support is one of the biggest issues with it. Rust based RTOS would also be helpful for medium size devices. Of course small devices are fine on bare metal.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  There are some projects, for example [1],[2], but they require nightly compiler, i.e. they cannot be used in production yet. [1]: https://github.com/tock/tock/blob/master/doc/Getting_Started.md https://github.com/tock/tock/blob/master/doc/Getting_Started... [2]: https://github.com/hashmismatch/freertos.rs https://github.com/hashmismatch/freertos.rs
- iainmerrick 8y ago
  If you don't use Rust yet, what do you use right now? I would have guessed C or C++. Maybe they're not great for the purpose but they're also just about the only game in town, no?
  - vardump 8y ago
    Mostly C. While C++ is easier to write, for very low level code, it is harder to maintain when you need to understand all of the side effects to maintain code safety. C++ compiler support is also sometimes not available. (And of course it's very like there'll be no Rust compiler available either in this case.)
v_lisivka 8y ago
Rust looks promising, but it is not ready yet. I use it on iMX6, which is relatively powerful system, but on NRF52 we still use C. Maybe I will use it on NRF52 when support for bare hardware metal will be in stable (working group[1] is working on that). [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg

taneq 8y ago

I've done a fair bit of embedded stuff with C++ and I completely agree. I've been watching Rust quite closely in the hopes that it's suitable for embedded development by the time my next round of projects comes up.