3 ms·

“Children are expensive”

ekianjo 8y ago
They are expensive because we want them to be. We have never had so much disposable income and so few children in History.
- asdsa5325 8y ago
  You must be referring to this: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 Note that the real definition of "disposable income" just means income after taxes. Since housing costs come out of disposable income, and housing costs have been increasing far faster than income, you are not actually on base.
- orangecat 8y ago
  As income potential increases, so does the opportunity cost of raising children. If you're making $50k/year, you're not giving up month-long European vacations by having kids. If you're making $500k/year, you might be.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Absolute resources available to raise children goes up though.
- someguydave 8y ago
  That's because the disposable income is mainly going to bid up the price of real estate. Nobody is making more real estate and the existing owners patronize the government to lock out competition. The federal government then pours gas on the fire by subsidizing demand through housing loan guarantees. Meanwhile, as the young prospective parents work harder than ever to save for children, the government claims that they aren't producing enough new citizens to keep the welfare state going. This is taken as justification for bringing in immigrant labor. This suppresses wages for everyone, making saving and reproducing harder. No, I don't believe the free market is a zero-sum game. But it's not exactly free either.
  - majidazimi 8y ago
    Exactly this. This is an interminable stupid loop. 1. People want their own house, 2 cars, .... 2. So they work more, to earn more. 3. In some cases you need to study more, to get better job. 4. Women also get involved in this shitty loop. 5. Getting loans are easier now. However housing supply is not sufficient. So prices go higher. 6. People end up working/studying more, because they need even more money now. 7. They end up having 1 child. 8. Now, since government wants more workers (1 child is not sustainable), they have to bring immigrants. 9. It is getting dangerous now. Corporations lobby politicians, to keep minimum wages at a very low level. 10. Ambitious immigrants are ready to work like a horse. (Don't feel offended, I'm also an immigrant) 11. Corporations bully current employees to work more, since if you don't work more, there is an immigrant out there to replace you. 12. People have to work even more to satisfy their employers. 13. Go to 1.
    - someguydave 8y ago
      Yes, precisely this. Taken from a cynical perspective it appears that many people are making large personal sacrifices to bid-up the prices of real estate held by rich urban landowners, as well as to fund the welfare state. With respect to real estate, I would suggest that the government at least stop pouring fuel on the fire. End all real estate tax subsidies, including mortgage interest tax deductions. End all government real estate loan guarantees. End any favorable tax treatment of real estate as an asset. On the supply side, the government should greatly curtail restrictions on property development. I think some concern about the quality of housing is justified, but nearly all zoning should be eliminated.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    One issue here is that, taken as a whole, the vast majority of real estate in the US is incredibly cheap. In some places you can get land literally for free, generally with the condition that you build (or park - some even allow mobile homes) a home on that land. But as education has increased so has the desire of people to live and work in the most desirable areas in the US where the highest paying jobs are. It's not hard to see what happens there. A huge and never-ending increase in demand paired with wages way above the national norm for those who do establish themselves successfully. You're going to naturally send the price of housing skyrocketing. The push for immigration is, in my opinion, coming primarily from the private sector who then "donates" to government to do their bidding. The reason is, as you mention, to drive down wages. This is likely even the reason for the push of trying to get more women into computer science. There's no shortage of developers, but there's also not an extreme surplus as there is for many other jobs. Getting more women in the field would stand to potentially near double the labor force which would enable companies to sharply cut wages. And conveniently it also sounds like a socially progressive movement and so companies work to undermine a labor force while getting cheered on by that same labor force for doing so. Anyhow, these problems will ultimately only be solved when we stop pretending that 95% of this country doesn't exist. That goes for employee, entrepreneur, and venture capitalist alike.

They are expensive because we want them to be. We have never had so much disposable income and so few children in History.

asdsa5325 8y ago
You must be referring to this: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 Note that the real definition of "disposable income" just means income after taxes. Since housing costs come out of disposable income, and housing costs have been increasing far faster than income, you are not actually on base.
orangecat 8y ago
As income potential increases, so does the opportunity cost of raising children. If you're making $50k/year, you're not giving up month-long European vacations by having kids. If you're making $500k/year, you might be.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Absolute resources available to raise children goes up though.
someguydave 8y ago
That's because the disposable income is mainly going to bid up the price of real estate. Nobody is making more real estate and the existing owners patronize the government to lock out competition. The federal government then pours gas on the fire by subsidizing demand through housing loan guarantees. Meanwhile, as the young prospective parents work harder than ever to save for children, the government claims that they aren't producing enough new citizens to keep the welfare state going. This is taken as justification for bringing in immigrant labor. This suppresses wages for everyone, making saving and reproducing harder. No, I don't believe the free market is a zero-sum game. But it's not exactly free either.
- majidazimi 8y ago
  Exactly this. This is an interminable stupid loop. 1. People want their own house, 2 cars, .... 2. So they work more, to earn more. 3. In some cases you need to study more, to get better job. 4. Women also get involved in this shitty loop. 5. Getting loans are easier now. However housing supply is not sufficient. So prices go higher. 6. People end up working/studying more, because they need even more money now. 7. They end up having 1 child. 8. Now, since government wants more workers (1 child is not sustainable), they have to bring immigrants. 9. It is getting dangerous now. Corporations lobby politicians, to keep minimum wages at a very low level. 10. Ambitious immigrants are ready to work like a horse. (Don't feel offended, I'm also an immigrant) 11. Corporations bully current employees to work more, since if you don't work more, there is an immigrant out there to replace you. 12. People have to work even more to satisfy their employers. 13. Go to 1.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    Yes, precisely this. Taken from a cynical perspective it appears that many people are making large personal sacrifices to bid-up the prices of real estate held by rich urban landowners, as well as to fund the welfare state. With respect to real estate, I would suggest that the government at least stop pouring fuel on the fire. End all real estate tax subsidies, including mortgage interest tax deductions. End all government real estate loan guarantees. End any favorable tax treatment of real estate as an asset. On the supply side, the government should greatly curtail restrictions on property development. I think some concern about the quality of housing is justified, but nearly all zoning should be eliminated.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  One issue here is that, taken as a whole, the vast majority of real estate in the US is incredibly cheap. In some places you can get land literally for free, generally with the condition that you build (or park - some even allow mobile homes) a home on that land. But as education has increased so has the desire of people to live and work in the most desirable areas in the US where the highest paying jobs are. It's not hard to see what happens there. A huge and never-ending increase in demand paired with wages way above the national norm for those who do establish themselves successfully. You're going to naturally send the price of housing skyrocketing. The push for immigration is, in my opinion, coming primarily from the private sector who then "donates" to government to do their bidding. The reason is, as you mention, to drive down wages. This is likely even the reason for the push of trying to get more women into computer science. There's no shortage of developers, but there's also not an extreme surplus as there is for many other jobs. Getting more women in the field would stand to potentially near double the labor force which would enable companies to sharply cut wages. And conveniently it also sounds like a socially progressive movement and so companies work to undermine a labor force while getting cheered on by that same labor force for doing so. Anyhow, these problems will ultimately only be solved when we stop pretending that 95% of this country doesn't exist. That goes for employee, entrepreneur, and venture capitalist alike.