5 ms·

PULIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: author trolls the mentally ill in standard way, says they're doing it for attention. If you have serious psych diagnosis like BP et

PULIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: author trolls the mentally ill in standard way, says they're doing it for attention. If you have serious psych diagnosis like BP etc., please avoid this content; your loved ones know you're trying and only a handfull of contrarians strike this pose. Get some exercise and a good night's sleep, and stay on your meds. I'm rooting for you. P.S. This trash should not be on HN. It has nothing to do with tech and it could kill somebody.

s-shellfish 8y ago
I've known people who have been on upwards of 40 different medications throughout their life. It's a choice, not an obligation. If you have had to cycle through being on 5+ medications all to balance out effects of the others of which, might help, might not, not sure - for decades, and you wind up feeling like 'I don't even know who the fuck I am without all of this', then that's a place to be in life too that can be therapeutic and helpful. Not to mention the trends of psychiatric medication offering addictive substances and then basically, punishing you when you become addicted to them, backpedaling and then offering something no more effective than a placebo, then cycling you through groups and various other forms of 'healthcare' that is more comparable to being herded like cattle than it is therapeutic, while telling you 'now you're an addict' and basically laughing when you say 'but yes, because I took the drugs you gave me to get well, and then I got addicted, because they made me well, and I don't know the difference anymore between health and illness mentally'. The mental healthcare system in many areas of the world are fucked up. You can blame those things for some portion of your life and silently blame yourself for the rest of it. That's what I do anyway. Or be loud about it, on the internet. Life sucks, sometimes. I'm rooting for you too.
- elipsey 8y ago
  Yep, meds are terrible. My comment is for that small fraction of the population for whom "Just knock it off" is a dangerously wrong but appealing idea -- like curing cancer with coffee enemas. These folks have a high mortality rate. (If you're reading this you know who you are. Stay away from the article :)
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    Words can be terrible too, from either side. Focusing on one singular thing to blame isn't often the solution. Creating the division between the appearance of sanity and the appearance of insanity - of course that's chaos. But is it really fair to divide the population into people who have defunct minds and functional minds? Is it fair to say 'here's your label' while also saying 'don't identify with it'. Is it fair to listen to someone say 'don't think black and white' while also saying 'you are mentally ill, and I am sane'. I know for myself, the outside can sometimes look like a selfish lunatic and the inside can be completely without self in a way that intends to be giving, but in a way that is hard on myself enough to know I don't know everything and hard problems are hard. Being told that all I need to do is take my meds and act like a normal person can come across a bit, patronizing, while I've spoken to people in mental healthcare systems who both 'enjoyed how I picked their brain' because I suppose for them, it made some stuff click, and for others, I still blame myself. Mental health is not easy. I don't know of anyone better to understand how hard it can be than someone who knows it intimately, aside from someone whose studied it so much they don't know if that's part of the reason people become it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(discrimination) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(discrimination)
pokemongoaway 8y ago
How could it kill somebody? And can you link to where the ill are being trolled?
RickS 8y ago
First, I agree with most of your argument. In persons for whom these traits arise from mental illness, this particular brand of sarcastic blaming of the holder of emotions is likely counterproductive. With that said, if the overwhelming majority of readers were miserable not via irreparable mental illness, but from well-worn thought processes, and were capable of growth stemming from realizations about their behavior, might this be a productive exercise for more people than not? While I agree that the format is not maximally nurturing, that's not the same thing as being devoid of value. To call it trash, and to imply that it exists primarily to troll the mentally ill, are arguments made in bad faith IMO.
- Felz 8y ago
  This is a bravery debate, in other words. http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-bravery-debates/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-bravery... There are probably people who really need to hear "your problems are real and you should get help" and also those who need to hear "your problems are mainly self inflicted and you need to deal". This article gives the same advice for both types, and that's pretty dangerous.
  - RickS 8y ago
    That was a hugely useful read, thank you! It fits perfectly. A former coworker of mine recently recommended The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck. She said she read it in my voice. I couldn't stand it, and I couldn't figure out the source of the dissonance. She needed the thing I do. I need the thing she does (give more fucks). We can't read and grow from the same books. Really useful mental model here. I'd be interested in anything else you'd suggest as a good read.
    - Felz 8y ago
      I wish I could be more help for good reads. Unfortunately, I tend not to write them down, and the best stuff only sinks in later. SSC is usually fairly interesting for stuff like though, which is why I can remember to link it. For example, later post on the same topic: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-advice-you-hear/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-...
geowwy 8y ago
> author trolls the mentally ill in standard way, says they're doing it for attention. Where does she say that?
- esolyt 8y ago
  Basically during the entire post. "misery is an art form, and the satisfaction people seem to find in it reflects the creative effort required to cultivate it." "making yourself miserable is a craft all its own, requiring imagination, vision, and ingenuity." "There’s power in making other people feel guilty."
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Yeah, I guess that's fundamentally what annoyed me about the article. I hate smugness.
  - geowwy 8y ago
    How is that about mental illness? I genuinely don't get it. People can be unhappy without being mentally ill.
    - esolyt 8y ago
      > People can be unhappy without being mentally ill. Sure. But some people feel unhappy all the time. Sometimes for years, sometimes for their entire life. In their case, it is a mental health issue. It's not something they can just shake off when they hear the age-old "you're depressed because you choose to be" argument by a smug author. This approach is outdated and it doesn't work.
      - geowwy 8y ago
        > Sure. But some people feel unhappy all the time. Sometimes for years, sometimes for their entire life. In their case, it is a mental health issue. Sometimes it is, not always. When I went through long periods of unhappiness it was because of my circumstances and life choices.
unethical_ban 8y ago
FWIW, I think it's useful to see that if you exhibit a number of these behaviors, you either have mental issues (which is OK but help is needed) or you need to change your lifestyle and attitude. It's not trolling if it's not intentional, so don't use that term inappropriately.

s-shellfish 8y ago

I've known people who have been on upwards of 40 different medications throughout their life. It's a choice, not an obligation. If you have had to cycle through being on 5+ medications all to balance out effects of the others of which, might help, might not, not sure - for decades, and you wind up feeling like 'I don't even know who the fuck I am without all of this', then that's a place to be in life too that can be therapeutic and helpful. Not to mention the trends of psychiatric medication offering addictive substances and then basically, punishing you when you become addicted to them, backpedaling and then offering something no more effective than a placebo, then cycling you through groups and various other forms of 'healthcare' that is more comparable to being herded like cattle than it is therapeutic, while telling you 'now you're an addict' and basically laughing when you say 'but yes, because I took the drugs you gave me to get well, and then I got addicted, because they made me well, and I don't know the difference anymore between health and illness mentally'. The mental healthcare system in many areas of the world are fucked up. You can blame those things for some portion of your life and silently blame yourself for the rest of it. That's what I do anyway. Or be loud about it, on the internet. Life sucks, sometimes. I'm rooting for you too.

elipsey 8y ago
Yep, meds are terrible. My comment is for that small fraction of the population for whom "Just knock it off" is a dangerously wrong but appealing idea -- like curing cancer with coffee enemas. These folks have a high mortality rate. (If you're reading this you know who you are. Stay away from the article :)
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  Words can be terrible too, from either side. Focusing on one singular thing to blame isn't often the solution. Creating the division between the appearance of sanity and the appearance of insanity - of course that's chaos. But is it really fair to divide the population into people who have defunct minds and functional minds? Is it fair to say 'here's your label' while also saying 'don't identify with it'. Is it fair to listen to someone say 'don't think black and white' while also saying 'you are mentally ill, and I am sane'. I know for myself, the outside can sometimes look like a selfish lunatic and the inside can be completely without self in a way that intends to be giving, but in a way that is hard on myself enough to know I don't know everything and hard problems are hard. Being told that all I need to do is take my meds and act like a normal person can come across a bit, patronizing, while I've spoken to people in mental healthcare systems who both 'enjoyed how I picked their brain' because I suppose for them, it made some stuff click, and for others, I still blame myself. Mental health is not easy. I don't know of anyone better to understand how hard it can be than someone who knows it intimately, aside from someone whose studied it so much they don't know if that's part of the reason people become it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(discrimination) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(discrimination)

pokemongoaway 8y ago

How could it kill somebody? And can you link to where the ill are being trolled?

RickS 8y ago

First, I agree with most of your argument. In persons for whom these traits arise from mental illness, this particular brand of sarcastic blaming of the holder of emotions is likely counterproductive. With that said, if the overwhelming majority of readers were miserable not via irreparable mental illness, but from well-worn thought processes, and were capable of growth stemming from realizations about their behavior, might this be a productive exercise for more people than not? While I agree that the format is not maximally nurturing, that's not the same thing as being devoid of value. To call it trash, and to imply that it exists primarily to troll the mentally ill, are arguments made in bad faith IMO.

Felz 8y ago
This is a bravery debate, in other words. http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-bravery-debates/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-bravery... There are probably people who really need to hear "your problems are real and you should get help" and also those who need to hear "your problems are mainly self inflicted and you need to deal". This article gives the same advice for both types, and that's pretty dangerous.
- RickS 8y ago
  That was a hugely useful read, thank you! It fits perfectly. A former coworker of mine recently recommended The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck. She said she read it in my voice. I couldn't stand it, and I couldn't figure out the source of the dissonance. She needed the thing I do. I need the thing she does (give more fucks). We can't read and grow from the same books. Really useful mental model here. I'd be interested in anything else you'd suggest as a good read.
  - Felz 8y ago
    I wish I could be more help for good reads. Unfortunately, I tend not to write them down, and the best stuff only sinks in later. SSC is usually fairly interesting for stuff like though, which is why I can remember to link it. For example, later post on the same topic: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-advice-you-hear/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-...

geowwy 8y ago

> author trolls the mentally ill in standard way, says they're doing it for attention. Where does she say that?

esolyt 8y ago
Basically during the entire post. "misery is an art form, and the satisfaction people seem to find in it reflects the creative effort required to cultivate it." "making yourself miserable is a craft all its own, requiring imagination, vision, and ingenuity." "There’s power in making other people feel guilty."
- mirimir 8y ago
  Yeah, I guess that's fundamentally what annoyed me about the article. I hate smugness.
- geowwy 8y ago
  How is that about mental illness? I genuinely don't get it. People can be unhappy without being mentally ill.
  - esolyt 8y ago
    > People can be unhappy without being mentally ill. Sure. But some people feel unhappy all the time. Sometimes for years, sometimes for their entire life. In their case, it is a mental health issue. It's not something they can just shake off when they hear the age-old "you're depressed because you choose to be" argument by a smug author. This approach is outdated and it doesn't work.
    - geowwy 8y ago
      > Sure. But some people feel unhappy all the time. Sometimes for years, sometimes for their entire life. In their case, it is a mental health issue. Sometimes it is, not always. When I went through long periods of unhappiness it was because of my circumstances and life choices.

unethical_ban 8y ago

FWIW, I think it's useful to see that if you exhibit a number of these behaviors, you either have mental issues (which is OK but help is needed) or you need to change your lifestyle and attitude. It's not trolling if it's not intentional, so don't use that term inappropriately.