3 ms·

There were a whole bunch of ‘studies’ done after World War Two that purported to show how it was possible that ‘good people’ could be induced to do bad things.

There were a whole bunch of ‘studies’ done after World War Two that purported to show how it was possible that ‘good people’ could be induced to do bad things. I think the ones that gained wide currency were the ones that most excused truly horrific and servile behavior by individuals. I don’t believe for a second that someone who would torture or abuse or kill someone on the orders of someone else was ever a ‘good person’. Don’t tell me that someone who is talking someone’s child from them right now is a good person. I quit a job just recently working for dhs just because I didn’t want to participate in that kind of behavior even tangentially.

LarryL 8y ago
> I don’t believe for a second that someone who would torture or abuse or kill someone on the orders of someone else was ever a ‘good person’ That's easy to say. But context matters a lot! What about this: your family is held hostage, or you live in a dictature where disobedience means at best prison, and often retaliation against your family. Real example: I've met a guy -a political refugee- at work whose daughter was ABDUCTED by the police of his country to put pressure on him! Can you imagine his anguish? Now, you are ordered to go in this room and "extract a confession" from someone or to kill them. What would you do? (Knowing that there are NO CHANCES that you can escape/run without awful consequences at least on your family, it's not a movie). Same for going to war. Many times in history have the poorest been forced to go to war under pain of death (and possible retaliation on their family). What would you do in such a situation? Especially when you are poor and without "connections". Truth is that it's very easy to force people to do awful things by the use of force/coercion. Very few will want to be martyrs or put their family at risk.
- the_af 8y ago
  Do note that historically, in most cases of torture the torturers weren't themselves under threat, and their families weren't either. This hypothetical doesn't happen in practice. I tend to support the parent commenter's opinion that torturers were never good people to begin with. I can understand murderers, but not torturers, and especially not torturers of people who haven't directly wronged them (e.g. when it's an "interrogation"). Extreme examples such as "but what if your daughter was raped and murdered by your prisoner" tend NOT to be the case of real life scenarios where torture actually happens.
Tloewald 8y ago
One interesting thing about Milgram's experiment was that it was actually intended to detect a difference between the German and American psyche. This is a case of science working to falsify an incorrect belief. The argument being that there was something wrong in the German character that made it easier for someone like Hitler to get "good people" to do bad things. Experiments were run in the US as a test and control, and the results were well-established long before Zimbardo's ridiculous non-experiment. We only need to look at the behavior of ICE agents to see real world confirmation of Milgram's experiments.
Tloewald 8y ago
> I don’t believe for a second that someone who would torture or abuse or kill someone on the orders of someone else was ever a ‘good person’. Fair enough. How about "not a monster"?

LarryL 8y ago

> I don’t believe for a second that someone who would torture or abuse or kill someone on the orders of someone else was ever a ‘good person’ That's easy to say. But context matters a lot! What about this: your family is held hostage, or you live in a dictature where disobedience means at best prison, and often retaliation against your family. Real example: I've met a guy -a political refugee- at work whose daughter was ABDUCTED by the police of his country to put pressure on him! Can you imagine his anguish? Now, you are ordered to go in this room and "extract a confession" from someone or to kill them. What would you do? (Knowing that there are NO CHANCES that you can escape/run without awful consequences at least on your family, it's not a movie). Same for going to war. Many times in history have the poorest been forced to go to war under pain of death (and possible retaliation on their family). What would you do in such a situation? Especially when you are poor and without "connections". Truth is that it's very easy to force people to do awful things by the use of force/coercion. Very few will want to be martyrs or put their family at risk.

the_af 8y ago
Do note that historically, in most cases of torture the torturers weren't themselves under threat, and their families weren't either. This hypothetical doesn't happen in practice. I tend to support the parent commenter's opinion that torturers were never good people to begin with. I can understand murderers, but not torturers, and especially not torturers of people who haven't directly wronged them (e.g. when it's an "interrogation"). Extreme examples such as "but what if your daughter was raped and murdered by your prisoner" tend NOT to be the case of real life scenarios where torture actually happens.

Tloewald 8y ago

One interesting thing about Milgram's experiment was that it was actually intended to detect a difference between the German and American psyche. This is a case of science working to falsify an incorrect belief. The argument being that there was something wrong in the German character that made it easier for someone like Hitler to get "good people" to do bad things. Experiments were run in the US as a test and control, and the results were well-established long before Zimbardo's ridiculous non-experiment. We only need to look at the behavior of ICE agents to see real world confirmation of Milgram's experiments.

Tloewald 8y ago

> I don’t believe for a second that someone who would torture or abuse or kill someone on the orders of someone else was ever a ‘good person’. Fair enough. How about "not a monster"?