5 ms·

Are there any other historical instances of banks banning a specific type of purchase from CCs?

dmoy 8y ago
Mutual funds / stocks / index funds.
tmpz22 8y ago
I used to play a specific MMO which had to completely change its gameplay because scammers in the community were using stolen cards to buy bulk game subscriptions, lead to chargebacks and credit cards threatening to ban their primary means of monetization.
jaredklewis 8y ago
Casino chips, online gambling of just about any kind, stocks, money orders, lottery tickets, and mortgage payments all basically can't be made with credit cards. There are some banks that have blocked pornography and medical marijuana purchases. But basically, the pattern is clear: banks don't want to lend you money to make investments. Banning money orders is a natural extension of that because you can then go use that cash for the aforementioned things. That makes a lot of sense, because if banks did want to make those investments, they don't need you. If a bank wants to invest in stocks, property, or a game of roulette, they can just go put their money there, no credit card customer required. What banks can’t do without lending you money is get a little slice of your paycheck every month through interest payments. This is a separate asset class than things like stocks.
- glitcher 8y ago
  It's interesting, the other day at a local gas station (AZ) I just saw a sign posted that they now accept debit and credit cards for purchasing lottery tickets. I wonder what recently changed?
  - jaredklewis 8y ago
    I think this is probably a case of the individual retailer accepting credit cards, but that doesn't mean your credit card's issuing bank is going to approve the purchase. Obviously if they accept them, there must be some banks that don't mind, but I know that many issuers won't accept the transaction. Kind of like the situation we have here: Wells Fargo blocks cryptocurrency purchases, but not every bank does.
  - a1369209993 8y ago
    Presumably they list the purchase as "misc retail" or something equally nonspecific, and the bank can't tell whether that's gas, groceries, lottery tickets, or all of the above. (Hint: it's probably all of the above.)
- astura 8y ago
  As far as I know, the only bank that fully bans mortgage payments is American Express, I've use my Citi card to pay my mortgage when Plastiq has discounted fees from time to time.
  - jaredklewis 8y ago
    Interesting. I thought Visa also didn't allow it accept with debit cards, but now I am not sure. A little googl-ing suggests the main reason people can't may have more do with the mortgage lenders than the credit cards.
    - astura 8y ago
      You're right, apparently Plastiq reached out to a blogger and made the following statement: “mortgage payments are not an allowable category on Visa cards.” My Citi is a MasterCard and I've never had problems paying my mortgage with it. I did just last month. So Visa and AMEX won't let you pay mortgages but MasterCard is ok with it.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  But don't banks want you to be in debt to them, paying 24.9% annual interest? Isn't this how banks make much of their money? Why would they care how you enslave yourself to them? Anyways, even if cash advances have been outlawed since I last did it freely and recklessly (been over 15 years, so maybe they have?), it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to get cash somehow or the other. As a proof of concept, the very first coin dealer I just found randomly using Google takes all major credit cards and sells silver by the ounce. Well, gee whiz, I can run up my cards buying silver ounces, walk down the street, sell them at a different coin shop for cash, then go buy whatever I want. Hmmm... What is the real reason banks don't want people making certain investments??
  - jakebellacera 8y ago
    Because if you default, or go bankrupt, they lose out the interest payments and the debt owed back. Its all about risk management.
    - irq11 8y ago
      Also, interest rates are much higher for cash advances, belying their higher risk profile. Honestly, the responses in this thread from bitcoin people...it’s like they’re just now realizing that banks have intelligent employees working for them.
      - jdmichal 8y ago
        Ding ding ding! Here's a random credit card from American Express. Cash advances have a drastically higher interest rate, PLUS a 3% (minimum $5) transaction fee. https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/card-application/apply/prospect/terms/blue-cash-everyday-credit-card/25330-10-0#FeeTable https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/card-applica... Same pattern for Chase Sapphire Preferred. Higher APR and this time a 5% (minimum $10) transaction fee. https://applynow.chase.com/FlexAppWeb/pricing.do?card=FS6K&page_type=appterms https://applynow.chase.com/FlexAppWeb/pricing.do?card=FS6K&p...
  - jaredklewis 8y ago
- chaoticmass 8y ago
  Also, when you use your credit card to get a cash advance, it is charged at a higher interest rate. Letting you buy cash-like things would let you circumvent that higher interest rate, but since they usually ban those things, the loophole is closed.
astura 8y ago
Yes, AMEX prohibits the following: -Adult Entertainment -Cash Advances -Check Cashing/Guarantee -Child Pornography -Condo (Real Estate) Down Payments -Door-to-door Sales -Credit Restoration Services -Escort Services and Non-Licensed Massage Parlors -Financial Services -Foreign Exchange Bureaus -Future Services -Gambling -Lottery Sales -Marijuana Dispensaries -Mortgage Payments -Multi-level Pyramid Sales -Payday Lenders -Prostitution -Timeshares -Travel Tour Operators -Unlawful Sale of Prescription Drugs -Unlawful Sale of Tobacco and Smokeless Tobacco -Unregulated Charities -Virtual Currency Section 10.2 Prohibited Merchants: https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/NGMS/US_en/Images/MerchantPolicyOptBlue.pdf https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/NGMS/US_en/Images/Merch... (I believe they are some of the most conservative with transaction risks among the Big Four credit processors in the US)
- dopamean 8y ago
  > Child Pornography I wonder how they manage this. Is there a database of known child pornography vendors who accept credit cards? Seems like an odd thing to specifically call out.
  - astura 8y ago
    The description for that reads "Any written or visual depiction of a minor engaged in obscene or sexually explicit conduct." I don't know of the specific laws, but that leaves open content that may be legal (books, comics, drawings, fanfiction). By the way, "Travel Tour Operators" doesn't include all travel tour operators, just rouge ones: "Travel Tour Operators without membership to a Travel Industry Bonding Agency or not an authorized ticket agent (e.g. ARC/IATA/ABTA)." Also "Adult Entertainment" only applies to Internet porn, "Internet adult digital content sites," so you can probably still use your AMEX to buy a DVD at a brick and mortar porn store.
  - coolspot 8y ago
    Might be aimed at international vendors that are legal in their jurisdictions, but would be classified as CP in the US. See "Studio Seventeen" of Netherlands.
- 8y ago
saryant 8y ago
Cash-equivalent gift cards.

dmoy 8y ago

Mutual funds / stocks / index funds.

I used to play a specific MMO which had to completely change its gameplay because scammers in the community were using stolen cards to buy bulk game subscriptions, lead to chargebacks and credit cards threatening to ban their primary means of monetization.

jaredklewis 8y ago

Casino chips, online gambling of just about any kind, stocks, money orders, lottery tickets, and mortgage payments all basically can't be made with credit cards. There are some banks that have blocked pornography and medical marijuana purchases. But basically, the pattern is clear: banks don't want to lend you money to make investments. Banning money orders is a natural extension of that because you can then go use that cash for the aforementioned things. That makes a lot of sense, because if banks did want to make those investments, they don't need you. If a bank wants to invest in stocks, property, or a game of roulette, they can just go put their money there, no credit card customer required. What banks can’t do without lending you money is get a little slice of your paycheck every month through interest payments. This is a separate asset class than things like stocks.

glitcher 8y ago
It's interesting, the other day at a local gas station (AZ) I just saw a sign posted that they now accept debit and credit cards for purchasing lottery tickets. I wonder what recently changed?
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  I think this is probably a case of the individual retailer accepting credit cards, but that doesn't mean your credit card's issuing bank is going to approve the purchase. Obviously if they accept them, there must be some banks that don't mind, but I know that many issuers won't accept the transaction. Kind of like the situation we have here: Wells Fargo blocks cryptocurrency purchases, but not every bank does.
- a1369209993 8y ago
  Presumably they list the purchase as "misc retail" or something equally nonspecific, and the bank can't tell whether that's gas, groceries, lottery tickets, or all of the above. (Hint: it's probably all of the above.)
astura 8y ago
As far as I know, the only bank that fully bans mortgage payments is American Express, I've use my Citi card to pay my mortgage when Plastiq has discounted fees from time to time.
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  Interesting. I thought Visa also didn't allow it accept with debit cards, but now I am not sure. A little googl-ing suggests the main reason people can't may have more do with the mortgage lenders than the credit cards.
  - astura 8y ago
    You're right, apparently Plastiq reached out to a blogger and made the following statement: “mortgage payments are not an allowable category on Visa cards.” My Citi is a MasterCard and I've never had problems paying my mortgage with it. I did just last month. So Visa and AMEX won't let you pay mortgages but MasterCard is ok with it.
XalvinX 8y ago
But don't banks want you to be in debt to them, paying 24.9% annual interest? Isn't this how banks make much of their money? Why would they care how you enslave yourself to them? Anyways, even if cash advances have been outlawed since I last did it freely and recklessly (been over 15 years, so maybe they have?), it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to get cash somehow or the other. As a proof of concept, the very first coin dealer I just found randomly using Google takes all major credit cards and sells silver by the ounce. Well, gee whiz, I can run up my cards buying silver ounces, walk down the street, sell them at a different coin shop for cash, then go buy whatever I want. Hmmm... What is the real reason banks don't want people making certain investments??
- jakebellacera 8y ago
  Because if you default, or go bankrupt, they lose out the interest payments and the debt owed back. Its all about risk management.
  - irq11 8y ago
    Also, interest rates are much higher for cash advances, belying their higher risk profile. Honestly, the responses in this thread from bitcoin people...it’s like they’re just now realizing that banks have intelligent employees working for them.
    - jdmichal 8y ago
      Ding ding ding! Here's a random credit card from American Express. Cash advances have a drastically higher interest rate, PLUS a 3% (minimum $5) transaction fee. https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/card-application/apply/prospect/terms/blue-cash-everyday-credit-card/25330-10-0#FeeTable https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/card-applica... Same pattern for Chase Sapphire Preferred. Higher APR and this time a 5% (minimum $10) transaction fee. https://applynow.chase.com/FlexAppWeb/pricing.do?card=FS6K&page_type=appterms https://applynow.chase.com/FlexAppWeb/pricing.do?card=FS6K&p...
- jaredklewis 8y ago
chaoticmass 8y ago
Also, when you use your credit card to get a cash advance, it is charged at a higher interest rate. Letting you buy cash-like things would let you circumvent that higher interest rate, but since they usually ban those things, the loophole is closed.

astura 8y ago

Yes, AMEX prohibits the following: -Adult Entertainment -Cash Advances -Check Cashing/Guarantee -Child Pornography -Condo (Real Estate) Down Payments -Door-to-door Sales -Credit Restoration Services -Escort Services and Non-Licensed Massage Parlors -Financial Services -Foreign Exchange Bureaus -Future Services -Gambling -Lottery Sales -Marijuana Dispensaries -Mortgage Payments -Multi-level Pyramid Sales -Payday Lenders -Prostitution -Timeshares -Travel Tour Operators -Unlawful Sale of Prescription Drugs -Unlawful Sale of Tobacco and Smokeless Tobacco -Unregulated Charities -Virtual Currency Section 10.2 Prohibited Merchants: https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/NGMS/US_en/Images/MerchantPolicyOptBlue.pdf https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/NGMS/US_en/Images/Merch... (I believe they are some of the most conservative with transaction risks among the Big Four credit processors in the US)

dopamean 8y ago
> Child Pornography I wonder how they manage this. Is there a database of known child pornography vendors who accept credit cards? Seems like an odd thing to specifically call out.
- astura 8y ago
  The description for that reads "Any written or visual depiction of a minor engaged in obscene or sexually explicit conduct." I don't know of the specific laws, but that leaves open content that may be legal (books, comics, drawings, fanfiction). By the way, "Travel Tour Operators" doesn't include all travel tour operators, just rouge ones: "Travel Tour Operators without membership to a Travel Industry Bonding Agency or not an authorized ticket agent (e.g. ARC/IATA/ABTA)." Also "Adult Entertainment" only applies to Internet porn, "Internet adult digital content sites," so you can probably still use your AMEX to buy a DVD at a brick and mortar porn store.
- coolspot 8y ago
  Might be aimed at international vendors that are legal in their jurisdictions, but would be classified as CP in the US. See "Studio Seventeen" of Netherlands.
8y ago

saryant 8y ago

Cash-equivalent gift cards.