5 ms·

I don't understand some private persons' interest in going 'cashless', other than it seems cool and high-tech. Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to

I don't understand some private persons' interest in going 'cashless', other than it seems cool and high-tech. Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness, except for businesses and those who want to track you. More importantly, it can't be overstated that in a world where tracking of human activities has become perhaps the greatest threat to freedom (for example, in China) and to democracy (for example, in advanced democratic countries), cash provides an amazing, simple solution to tracking of your economic activities, at least the in-person transactions. For a trivial amount of effort, you eliminate a major source of information about yourself. It's much easier than using Tor or setting up a VPN, and it's more effective. tangentially; People are struggling to develop an electronic currency that provides reliable, anonymous, universally accepted transactions using all the tools of a computer. Imagine if the new requirement was, 'now do it using a piece of paper'. Cash is an amazing technology, even if we're all very accustomed to it.

craftyguy 8y ago
> . Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness Here are a handful reasons why carrying around cash sucks, off the top of my head: - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash.
- rootlocus 8y ago
  > - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) If the government / bank decides to freeze your assets, you could lose (temporary or permanently) everything. And there have been precedents in my country where the government abused this power. > - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. Yeah, well, you always have the option to donate / leave the change. It's a minor inconvenience. > - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash. Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent. Perhaps on large sums, which are very rare for me, but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    Good points. I don't think going completely cashless is the answer to all problems, I was just providing some counterpoints to the idea that there were "no downsides" to cash. > but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky. You may be able to, but I guarantee there are millions (billions?) of folks who cannot count quickly and/or do the basic arithmetic necessary (quickly, or sadly at all in some cases) for a transaction.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      You know tills do that now an have done that for say several decades.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    >Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent Lately it seems like cash is faster than using an electronic payment. At the pet store: - Insert loyalty card or enter ID number - Insert bank card - Wait for cashier to notice and push a button - Wait for cashier to finish ringing up items - Screen asks "Is $xxx.xx correct?" Push Y/N - Screen asks "Do you want cash back?" Push Y/N - Screen asks "Do you want to donate $1 to homeless pets?" Push Y/N - Screen prints "Enter an amount to donate to [insert local cause here]" Enter 0.00, push Y - Screen prints "You have xx loyalty points! Do you want to use them today?" Y/N - Screen prints "Is the total $xxx.xx correct?" Push Y/N - Authorizing... - Approved! - Wait for receipt to print. - Wait for separate machine to print habit-tracking coupons. - Take stuff and go. With cash: - Cashier rings up purchase. - Hand cashier money - Take change, stuff, and go.
    - Bakary 8y ago
      Sounds primarily like a North American thing
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      Why would you use a loyalty card with card payment and not cash payment? Paying with contactless in Europe: - Cashier rings up items - Tap your card on the screen - Approved - "No receipt please" (or some stores can automatically email your receipt)
kemayo 8y ago
Basically, sure, cash is fairly easy to use... but cashless is easier. Cashless is "I waved my watch at the register". Cash is more stuff to carry. A wallet which just contains a few cards is tiny; if you want it to contain a reasonable amount of money in bills and coins as well, it's bulky. Making change is a hassle -- ever had trouble paying because the shop can't make change for your bill? I have. Not disputing the privacy downsides of cashless. But for most people's day-to-day life, it's a trade-off they're happy to make.
- Animats 8y ago
  but cashless is easier. Cashless is "I waved my watch at the register". No, it's not. I keep seeing people futzing with their phone, or using some combination of affinity card, credit card, and EBT card that takes forever to process. Then there's "hosted POS in the cloud", where it takes five seconds for each transaction step as it goes out to some overloaded server. The credit card terminal and the POS terminal can get out of sync, so you get a false "Chip malfunction" message if you put in your card too soon. Here in Silicon Valley, the contactless card thing seems to have come and gone. I see "No Apple Pay" and "No Google Pay" labels taped over the RF card reader at many retailers.
  - avarun 8y ago
    That may be the situation in Silicon Valley, but try going to somewhere like London, where you're in the minority if you're not paying with a contactless credit card (let alone Apple Pay). A table of 4 splitting their bill at a restaurant just involves each person tapping their card once when the waiter brings the card reader, and then walking out.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Must be a cheap restaurant the limit for wireless is low.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    There are signs like this [1] ("No cash payment" or "Payment by card only") in some places in Sweden. I visit fairly often, and have mostly seen them in restaurants. I have never experienced the situations you describe, and have had a Chip+PIN card since 2004. Visa Europe did go down last week [2] but that's rare enough to make the international press. Times you might expect to pay by cash — like buying a single can of beer from a busy kiosk — the cashier already has the card terminal reading "22kr ((c· " before you realize you're next in line. [1] http://www.bohuslaningen.se/image/policy:1.754855:1462893090/image.jpg?f=Wide%26w=1200%26%24p%24f%24w=834285a http://www.bohuslaningen.se/image/policy:1.754855:1462893090... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/01/visa-card-network-crashes-and-sparks-payment-chaos https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/01/visa-card-netw...
crysin 8y ago
As a US citizen, I'd use cash a lot more if we didn't have coin change. Paper money can be neatly organized in my wallet but pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters make it a hassle to handle and more likely for me to lose money.
- maxk42 8y ago
  I just dump it in the tip jar. No tip jar? No problem. I've got one at home. Every six months or so I take it to the Coinstar and trade it for $100 in neat little bills.
  - amag 8y ago
    Hehe, that's what a lot of people I know in Sweden did, and then the Riksbank changed all the coins a couple of years back and it was a big hassle to find any place that would accept huge amounts of old coins without charging huge amounts of money for it.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  American coins are not very user friendly. The big 25¢ coin isn't worth much, the tiny 10¢ is tiny, the 5¢ far too large, the 1¢ close to worthless. It's rare that you could make a purchase with only a few coins. Most other wealthy countries with coins have a reasonable relation between the size (and often colour) of the coin and the value, and the coins have useful value. These are the Euro coins [1], one of each is €3.88 — already we can buy something! The €1 and €2 are thicker than the others, although of similar diameter to your quarter. I much prefer this to the fairly dirty $1 bills in the US. Euro coins: https://df2sm3urulav.cloudfront.net/tenants/ca/uploads/images/5000-9999/7440/7440_1326219271.jpg https://df2sm3urulav.cloudfront.net/tenants/ca/uploads/image... — some countries don't use the 1 and 2¢ coins.
JoshCole 8y ago
In going cash-only, you lose access to credit lines, because credit lines require established credit. For a lot of people, a lack of a credit line means they will not be able to get a house or car. As a direct result of this, someone interested in building credit will likely get a credit card. Once you get to the point where you have both a credit card and cash the dynamic changes. There are now two ways to play. The lazier of the two ways is with the credit card. No need to go to the bank or ATM to get cash. Humans, as a whole, tend to be lazy. I don't mean this in a negative sense, but in that we tend to be efficient. If there are two options, one of which requires more actions, we're going to prefer the one which requires less actions.
- Thlom 8y ago
  This sounds very American. No bank I've ever been in contact with have mentioned anything about a "credit line". Whenever I take up a loan the bank will use some third party company to make a credit rating of me, but I don't think it would matter to the credit rating whether I had a line of credit or not. In most of Scandinavia (Europe?), we don't use credit cards day to day. Most have access to a credit card which can be used in a pinch (not recommended ofc) or when buying expensive things or travelling abroad or whatever, but day to day payments is with a debit card for most people.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    > (Europe?) "In 2015, the total credit/delayed debit card base grew by 12.5 million cards to 310.8 million, an increase of 4.2 percent on 2014. There were 0.51 credit cards per capita on average across the E33 countries, although credit cards countries, such as Greece, Ireland, Turkey and the UK accounted for 127.4 million cards, 41.0 percent of the total." They are very popular in the UK; when I lived there I had two. (I had one as a student!) My mum probably has about 5, "this one's for food, this one's for petrol, unless I go to X, then it's this one..." https://www.paymentscardsandmobile.com/payment-cards-europe/ https://www.paymentscardsandmobile.com/payment-cards-europe/

craftyguy 8y ago

> . Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness Here are a handful reasons why carrying around cash sucks, off the top of my head: - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash.

rootlocus 8y ago
> - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) If the government / bank decides to freeze your assets, you could lose (temporary or permanently) everything. And there have been precedents in my country where the government abused this power. > - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. Yeah, well, you always have the option to donate / leave the change. It's a minor inconvenience. > - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash. Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent. Perhaps on large sums, which are very rare for me, but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Good points. I don't think going completely cashless is the answer to all problems, I was just providing some counterpoints to the idea that there were "no downsides" to cash. > but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky. You may be able to, but I guarantee there are millions (billions?) of folks who cannot count quickly and/or do the basic arithmetic necessary (quickly, or sadly at all in some cases) for a transaction.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    You know tills do that now an have done that for say several decades.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  >Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent Lately it seems like cash is faster than using an electronic payment. At the pet store: - Insert loyalty card or enter ID number - Insert bank card - Wait for cashier to notice and push a button - Wait for cashier to finish ringing up items - Screen asks "Is $xxx.xx correct?" Push Y/N - Screen asks "Do you want cash back?" Push Y/N - Screen asks "Do you want to donate $1 to homeless pets?" Push Y/N - Screen prints "Enter an amount to donate to [insert local cause here]" Enter 0.00, push Y - Screen prints "You have xx loyalty points! Do you want to use them today?" Y/N - Screen prints "Is the total $xxx.xx correct?" Push Y/N - Authorizing... - Approved! - Wait for receipt to print. - Wait for separate machine to print habit-tracking coupons. - Take stuff and go. With cash: - Cashier rings up purchase. - Hand cashier money - Take change, stuff, and go.
  - Bakary 8y ago
    Sounds primarily like a North American thing
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    Why would you use a loyalty card with card payment and not cash payment? Paying with contactless in Europe: - Cashier rings up items - Tap your card on the screen - Approved - "No receipt please" (or some stores can automatically email your receipt)

kemayo 8y ago

Basically, sure, cash is fairly easy to use... but cashless is easier. Cashless is "I waved my watch at the register". Cash is more stuff to carry. A wallet which just contains a few cards is tiny; if you want it to contain a reasonable amount of money in bills and coins as well, it's bulky. Making change is a hassle -- ever had trouble paying because the shop can't make change for your bill? I have. Not disputing the privacy downsides of cashless. But for most people's day-to-day life, it's a trade-off they're happy to make.

Animats 8y ago
but cashless is easier. Cashless is "I waved my watch at the register". No, it's not. I keep seeing people futzing with their phone, or using some combination of affinity card, credit card, and EBT card that takes forever to process. Then there's "hosted POS in the cloud", where it takes five seconds for each transaction step as it goes out to some overloaded server. The credit card terminal and the POS terminal can get out of sync, so you get a false "Chip malfunction" message if you put in your card too soon. Here in Silicon Valley, the contactless card thing seems to have come and gone. I see "No Apple Pay" and "No Google Pay" labels taped over the RF card reader at many retailers.
- avarun 8y ago
  That may be the situation in Silicon Valley, but try going to somewhere like London, where you're in the minority if you're not paying with a contactless credit card (let alone Apple Pay). A table of 4 splitting their bill at a restaurant just involves each person tapping their card once when the waiter brings the card reader, and then walking out.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Must be a cheap restaurant the limit for wireless is low.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  There are signs like this [1] ("No cash payment" or "Payment by card only") in some places in Sweden. I visit fairly often, and have mostly seen them in restaurants. I have never experienced the situations you describe, and have had a Chip+PIN card since 2004. Visa Europe did go down last week [2] but that's rare enough to make the international press. Times you might expect to pay by cash — like buying a single can of beer from a busy kiosk — the cashier already has the card terminal reading "22kr ((c· " before you realize you're next in line. [1] http://www.bohuslaningen.se/image/policy:1.754855:1462893090/image.jpg?f=Wide%26w=1200%26%24p%24f%24w=834285a http://www.bohuslaningen.se/image/policy:1.754855:1462893090... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/01/visa-card-network-crashes-and-sparks-payment-chaos https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/01/visa-card-netw...

crysin 8y ago

As a US citizen, I'd use cash a lot more if we didn't have coin change. Paper money can be neatly organized in my wallet but pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters make it a hassle to handle and more likely for me to lose money.

maxk42 8y ago
I just dump it in the tip jar. No tip jar? No problem. I've got one at home. Every six months or so I take it to the Coinstar and trade it for $100 in neat little bills.
- amag 8y ago
  Hehe, that's what a lot of people I know in Sweden did, and then the Riksbank changed all the coins a couple of years back and it was a big hassle to find any place that would accept huge amounts of old coins without charging huge amounts of money for it.
Symbiote 8y ago
American coins are not very user friendly. The big 25¢ coin isn't worth much, the tiny 10¢ is tiny, the 5¢ far too large, the 1¢ close to worthless. It's rare that you could make a purchase with only a few coins. Most other wealthy countries with coins have a reasonable relation between the size (and often colour) of the coin and the value, and the coins have useful value. These are the Euro coins [1], one of each is €3.88 — already we can buy something! The €1 and €2 are thicker than the others, although of similar diameter to your quarter. I much prefer this to the fairly dirty $1 bills in the US. Euro coins: https://df2sm3urulav.cloudfront.net/tenants/ca/uploads/images/5000-9999/7440/7440_1326219271.jpg https://df2sm3urulav.cloudfront.net/tenants/ca/uploads/image... — some countries don't use the 1 and 2¢ coins.

JoshCole 8y ago

In going cash-only, you lose access to credit lines, because credit lines require established credit. For a lot of people, a lack of a credit line means they will not be able to get a house or car. As a direct result of this, someone interested in building credit will likely get a credit card. Once you get to the point where you have both a credit card and cash the dynamic changes. There are now two ways to play. The lazier of the two ways is with the credit card. No need to go to the bank or ATM to get cash. Humans, as a whole, tend to be lazy. I don't mean this in a negative sense, but in that we tend to be efficient. If there are two options, one of which requires more actions, we're going to prefer the one which requires less actions.

Thlom 8y ago
This sounds very American. No bank I've ever been in contact with have mentioned anything about a "credit line". Whenever I take up a loan the bank will use some third party company to make a credit rating of me, but I don't think it would matter to the credit rating whether I had a line of credit or not. In most of Scandinavia (Europe?), we don't use credit cards day to day. Most have access to a credit card which can be used in a pinch (not recommended ofc) or when buying expensive things or travelling abroad or whatever, but day to day payments is with a debit card for most people.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  > (Europe?) "In 2015, the total credit/delayed debit card base grew by 12.5 million cards to 310.8 million, an increase of 4.2 percent on 2014. There were 0.51 credit cards per capita on average across the E33 countries, although credit cards countries, such as Greece, Ireland, Turkey and the UK accounted for 127.4 million cards, 41.0 percent of the total." They are very popular in the UK; when I lived there I had two. (I had one as a student!) My mum probably has about 5, "this one's for food, this one's for petrol, unless I go to X, then it's this one..." https://www.paymentscardsandmobile.com/payment-cards-europe/ https://www.paymentscardsandmobile.com/payment-cards-europe/