4 ms·

That's a false dichotomy.

drusepth 8y ago
It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation, IMO (which in turn is in response to asking about giving entire countries access to some subset of the Internet, especially [and explicitly] when they don't otherwise have Internet access). I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some large internet companies would subsidize plans like "Facebook-only" to connect more people to the Internet (see: to their service). This in turn, well, connects those people, gives them opportunities and access to knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have, and eventually opens them up to the rest of the Internet. It's a stepping stone: obviously, all internet is better than some internet, but some internet is better than no internet. There's an alternative of just giving them the full internet for free/cheap (which I'd love to see), but is obviously way less likely. In that sense (and, to bring things back to the comment my parent is responding to), I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. Is that wrong of me?
- bkor 8y ago
  > It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation, IMO Repeal of Net Neutrality makes his a possibility. Yours not so much.
- paublyrne 8y ago
  I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. I think it's not preferable. I would rather see prices driven down through demand so that full access is affordable to all, then for an artificially low price that allowed access to a Facebook internet to kill the market for cheap plans.
- aerotwelve 8y ago
  > This in turn, well, connects those people, gives them opportunities and access to knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have, and eventually opens them up to the rest of the Internet. The problem here is that the last part -- the part where these minimal plans lead to a path where the full internet is available in these underserved areas -- doesn't have to happen. All it does is (incorrectly) teach those users that the internet is just a means to access Facebook and a few other partnered sites. You're teaching them to expect the cable TV model for their internet access, which is precisely what we want to avoid.
- jasonlotito 8y ago
  > It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation It's not hypothetical. It has actually happened. > I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some large internet companies would subsidize plans... Again, you don't have to assume. This has happened. > I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. Is that wrong of me? Considering they would be losing a cheap plan that allows access to all of the internet in the process, yes, it is wrong of you.
sean2 8y ago
Normally I'd agree with you, but the world was recently offered "Free Basics by Facebook" and had to decide between no internet vs practically Facebook only which I think the GP is alluding to. So, it's not an invented hypothetical.
- null000 8y ago
  That was made by Facebook, and likely funded in part by the fact that they're guaranteed all of the traffic (and thus add revenue) from those internet connections and that it would generate a fair amount of positive PR. As everyone else has pointed out - we'll be paying for the full cost (and probably quite a bit more based on ISPs previous behavior) of the connection one way or another. Either we pay for it through ISPs charging service owners for the privilege on being on the limited packages (thus upping the cost of the subscription indirectly for everyone) or ISPs forcibly create monopolies by pushing users on to their own web platforms, then raise prices later (as is the end goal of any push to fabricate a monopoly). It's pretty much strictly lose lose from the customers' point of view, at least in aggregate over the long term.

It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation, IMO (which in turn is in response to asking about giving entire countries access to some subset of the Internet, especially [and explicitly] when they don't otherwise have Internet access). I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some large internet companies would subsidize plans like "Facebook-only" to connect more people to the Internet (see: to their service). This in turn, well, connects those people, gives them opportunities and access to knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have, and eventually opens them up to the rest of the Internet. It's a stepping stone: obviously, all internet is better than some internet, but some internet is better than no internet. There's an alternative of just giving them the full internet for free/cheap (which I'd love to see), but is obviously way less likely. In that sense (and, to bring things back to the comment my parent is responding to), I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. Is that wrong of me?

bkor 8y ago
> It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation, IMO Repeal of Net Neutrality makes his a possibility. Yours not so much.
paublyrne 8y ago
I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. I think it's not preferable. I would rather see prices driven down through demand so that full access is affordable to all, then for an artificially low price that allowed access to a Facebook internet to kill the market for cheap plans.
aerotwelve 8y ago
> This in turn, well, connects those people, gives them opportunities and access to knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have, and eventually opens them up to the rest of the Internet. The problem here is that the last part -- the part where these minimal plans lead to a path where the full internet is available in these underserved areas -- doesn't have to happen. All it does is (incorrectly) teach those users that the internet is just a means to access Facebook and a few other partnered sites. You're teaching them to expect the cable TV model for their internet access, which is precisely what we want to avoid.
jasonlotito 8y ago
> It's also in response to an equally-hypothetical situation It's not hypothetical. It has actually happened. > I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some large internet companies would subsidize plans... Again, you don't have to assume. This has happened. > I think that providing a cheap plan that allows access to some subset of the Internet targeted at people who wouldn't otherwise have internet is preferable to those people just not having access at all. Is that wrong of me? Considering they would be losing a cheap plan that allows access to all of the internet in the process, yes, it is wrong of you.

sean2 8y ago

Normally I'd agree with you, but the world was recently offered "Free Basics by Facebook" and had to decide between no internet vs practically Facebook only which I think the GP is alluding to. So, it's not an invented hypothetical.

null000 8y ago
That was made by Facebook, and likely funded in part by the fact that they're guaranteed all of the traffic (and thus add revenue) from those internet connections and that it would generate a fair amount of positive PR. As everyone else has pointed out - we'll be paying for the full cost (and probably quite a bit more based on ISPs previous behavior) of the connection one way or another. Either we pay for it through ISPs charging service owners for the privilege on being on the limited packages (thus upping the cost of the subscription indirectly for everyone) or ISPs forcibly create monopolies by pushing users on to their own web platforms, then raise prices later (as is the end goal of any push to fabricate a monopoly). It's pretty much strictly lose lose from the customers' point of view, at least in aggregate over the long term.