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I agree this policy is likely folly and that China showed its cards far too early, but I also believe that the Western policy of hoping that welcoming in China

by Zafira 8y ago

I agree this policy is likely folly and that China showed its cards far too early, but I also believe that the Western policy of hoping that welcoming in China would lead to greater democratic freedoms was one of arrogance. The current landscape of trade deals and international law is clearly Western focused and to believe that other cultures are simply going to happily go along with that logic in the long run seems foolish. For instance, despite complaints about persistent intellectual property issues in China, there is no strong legacy of this right in Chinese history, but then the idea of rule of law is somewhat alien too.

friedman23 8y ago
> and to believe that other cultures are simply going to happily go along with that logic in the long run seems foolish This framing is problematic. It's not other "cultures" that are resistive to the idea of liberalism and democratic ideals, it's the despots that lead and control those governments that are resistant. How many non Western cultures have thrived under democracies with individual liberties? Japan, a country with a culture that cares little about individualism is one of the most prosperous nations ever.
- Zafira 8y ago
  I am not arguing democratic ideals are bad. Obviously these norms and standards can be introduced to any culture and assimilated over time. What I am arguing is that the method that seems to have been used to get people to accept them doesn't work, was never going to work, but mostly that forcing the construction of certain legal/cultural rights onto groups as part of some international framework was bound to have issues. It has been done in a very sort of, "To join our club, you have to believe that this thing we made up is a universal truth." As an example, the concept of authors' rights is something that is enforced through the Berne Convention and the original signatories in 1887 were shockingly all Western (or Westernized) nations. Acceptance of it is a WTO membership requirement. The existence of authors' rights is not a thing in some cultures and it is orthogonal to democratic values, but in order to play ball in the global arena, you have to agree that it is a thing.
Angostura 8y ago
> but I also believe that the Western policy of hoping that welcoming in China would lead to greater democratic freedoms was one of arrogance. I'd probably go with 'naivety' or 'over-optimism' rather than arrogance.
- ptaipale 8y ago
  I guess it depends on whether one thinks that democracy and freedom are good things as such. They are not necessarily universal values, even if many in the West tend to think so.
  - hawkice 8y ago
    Democracy is complicated (we have a complicated democracy because simple democracy doesn't reflect _our_ values, for instance), but freedom? Maybe at-any-costs freedom isn't universal, but freedom generically is. It is tied so deeply into human dignity you might be imagining Chinese culture poorly if you think it's a bad match. Also, I live in Taiwan, so with a data point of 1, I'm pretty sure freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture (probably a better match than American culture? hard to say). It works well here. But that's just my two cents. [edit: it sure as hell works better than the white terror]
    - nailer 8y ago
      For those wondering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
    - kinsomo 8y ago
      > I'm pretty sure freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture (probably a better match than American culture? hard to say). It works well here. But that's just my two cents. Would you care to elaborate on your point that "freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture"? I ask because that directly contradicts one of the points that the CCP (probably Self-servingly) hammers on. It would nice to get other perspectives on that.

by Zafira 8y ago

friedman23 8y ago

> and to believe that other cultures are simply going to happily go along with that logic in the long run seems foolish This framing is problematic. It's not other "cultures" that are resistive to the idea of liberalism and democratic ideals, it's the despots that lead and control those governments that are resistant. How many non Western cultures have thrived under democracies with individual liberties? Japan, a country with a culture that cares little about individualism is one of the most prosperous nations ever.

Zafira 8y ago
I am not arguing democratic ideals are bad. Obviously these norms and standards can be introduced to any culture and assimilated over time. What I am arguing is that the method that seems to have been used to get people to accept them doesn't work, was never going to work, but mostly that forcing the construction of certain legal/cultural rights onto groups as part of some international framework was bound to have issues. It has been done in a very sort of, "To join our club, you have to believe that this thing we made up is a universal truth." As an example, the concept of authors' rights is something that is enforced through the Berne Convention and the original signatories in 1887 were shockingly all Western (or Westernized) nations. Acceptance of it is a WTO membership requirement. The existence of authors' rights is not a thing in some cultures and it is orthogonal to democratic values, but in order to play ball in the global arena, you have to agree that it is a thing.

Angostura 8y ago

> but I also believe that the Western policy of hoping that welcoming in China would lead to greater democratic freedoms was one of arrogance. I'd probably go with 'naivety' or 'over-optimism' rather than arrogance.

ptaipale 8y ago
I guess it depends on whether one thinks that democracy and freedom are good things as such. They are not necessarily universal values, even if many in the West tend to think so.
- hawkice 8y ago
  Democracy is complicated (we have a complicated democracy because simple democracy doesn't reflect _our_ values, for instance), but freedom? Maybe at-any-costs freedom isn't universal, but freedom generically is. It is tied so deeply into human dignity you might be imagining Chinese culture poorly if you think it's a bad match. Also, I live in Taiwan, so with a data point of 1, I'm pretty sure freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture (probably a better match than American culture? hard to say). It works well here. But that's just my two cents. [edit: it sure as hell works better than the white terror]
  - nailer 8y ago
    For those wondering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
  - kinsomo 8y ago
    > I'm pretty sure freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture (probably a better match than American culture? hard to say). It works well here. But that's just my two cents. Would you care to elaborate on your point that "freedom and democracy are a really good match for Chinese culture"? I ask because that directly contradicts one of the points that the CCP (probably Self-servingly) hammers on. It would nice to get other perspectives on that.