3 ms·

The caving ethic is more akin to Victorian alpinism

planteen 8y ago
How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.
- kazinator 8y ago
  "Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
  - Mister_X 8y ago
    You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
    - Mister_X 8y ago
      There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
- sideshowb 8y ago
  See my post above. Sorry for the sweeping generalization. Caving ethic tends to be "anything goes so long as you don't damage the pretty bits".
Mister_X 8y ago
Your broad generalization doesn't work with Caving though, this thread is specifically about cave exploration and Victorian alpinism wasn't about that at all, it was a frivolous "sport" of the times. They weren't surveying and drafting maps like these cavers are. They weren't noting on those maps where interesting or important geologic or paleontological finds are like Cavers do. Cave explorers are adding to the body of scientific knowledge in ways that mountaineering could never accomplish.
- sideshowb 8y ago
  The Victorians thought they were too. If it wasn't on facebook, I mean if you didn't get a summit barometer reading the ascent might as well not have happened ;) In all seriousness the wave of alpine exploration from the 1800s on was responsible for dispelling myths such as dragons living in the mountains. It was very much linked to a scientific worldview. My generalization is broad as I typed it on a mobile. There is a lot more subtlety to all of this for sure. I guess I meant in my experience of caving the emphasis is on getting there and back alive without damaging any pretty bits. Contrast rock climbing where people take significant risks in order to avoid "cheating". To some extent the latter ethic has transferred into modern Alpinism also which is why I referred to historic ethics. Cavers won't take quite the same support team of servants to get somewhere, though cave divers often rope a buddy or two into carrying their gear.

How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.

kazinator 8y ago
"Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
- Mister_X 8y ago
  You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
  - Mister_X 8y ago
    There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
sideshowb 8y ago
See my post above. Sorry for the sweeping generalization. Caving ethic tends to be "anything goes so long as you don't damage the pretty bits".

Mister_X 8y ago

Your broad generalization doesn't work with Caving though, this thread is specifically about cave exploration and Victorian alpinism wasn't about that at all, it was a frivolous "sport" of the times. They weren't surveying and drafting maps like these cavers are. They weren't noting on those maps where interesting or important geologic or paleontological finds are like Cavers do. Cave explorers are adding to the body of scientific knowledge in ways that mountaineering could never accomplish.

sideshowb 8y ago
The Victorians thought they were too. If it wasn't on facebook, I mean if you didn't get a summit barometer reading the ascent might as well not have happened ;) In all seriousness the wave of alpine exploration from the 1800s on was responsible for dispelling myths such as dragons living in the mountains. It was very much linked to a scientific worldview. My generalization is broad as I typed it on a mobile. There is a lot more subtlety to all of this for sure. I guess I meant in my experience of caving the emphasis is on getting there and back alive without damaging any pretty bits. Contrast rock climbing where people take significant risks in order to avoid "cheating". To some extent the latter ethic has transferred into modern Alpinism also which is why I referred to historic ethics. Cavers won't take quite the same support team of servants to get somewhere, though cave divers often rope a buddy or two into carrying their gear.