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Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. While robot probes seem a good idea, if anything goes w

Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. While robot probes seem a good idea, if anything goes wrong with the device, someone's going to have to recover it...

et2o 8y ago
They could send another drone ;)
chrisseaton 8y ago
> Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. They're literally drilling holes into the wall in one of the photos. Not exactly 'leave nothing but footprints' is it? The same as climbers who drill bolts - I'm not sure why they excuse themselves from the most basic of the outdoor codes.
- sideshowb 8y ago
  If bolts bother you for that reason why not stop leaving footsteps? Hiking trails are far more visible. As are worn trad climbing gear placements sometimes
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- sideshowb 8y ago
  The caving ethic is more akin to Victorian alpinism
  - planteen 8y ago
    How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.
    - kazinator 8y ago
      "Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
      - Mister_X 8y ago
        You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
        Mister_X 8y ago
        There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
    - sideshowb 8y ago
  - Mister_X 8y ago
    Your broad generalization doesn't work with Caving though, this thread is specifically about cave exploration and Victorian alpinism wasn't about that at all, it was a frivolous "sport" of the times. They weren't surveying and drafting maps like these cavers are. They weren't noting on those maps where interesting or important geologic or paleontological finds are like Cavers do. Cave explorers are adding to the body of scientific knowledge in ways that mountaineering could never accomplish.
    - sideshowb 8y ago
      The Victorians thought they were too. If it wasn't on facebook, I mean if you didn't get a summit barometer reading the ascent might as well not have happened ;) In all seriousness the wave of alpine exploration from the 1800s on was responsible for dispelling myths such as dragons living in the mountains. It was very much linked to a scientific worldview. My generalization is broad as I typed it on a mobile. There is a lot more subtlety to all of this for sure. I guess I meant in my experience of caving the emphasis is on getting there and back alive without damaging any pretty bits. Contrast rock climbing where people take significant risks in order to avoid "cheating". To some extent the latter ethic has transferred into modern Alpinism also which is why I referred to historic ethics. Cavers won't take quite the same support team of servants to get somewhere, though cave divers often rope a buddy or two into carrying their gear.
- planteen 8y ago
  Cavers will use natural rigging when it is available. Many pits are bell shaped since they form from the bottom up. So they are quite easy to rig an rappel. You tie off to some breakdown or perhaps a tree if you are on the surface and one is convenient. Your rappel rubs for maybe a few feet on the way down and then you are completely free. To get back up, you often use a system called a frog with ascenders (jumars). Trad rock climbing out of such a pit would be impossible and do far more damage. There are often formations on the walls and it climbing such an overhung situation would be impossible for most mortals who can't handle a 5.15. But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. You need to rig such that your rope won't cut itself from rubbing as you ascend. Or perhaps you need to avoid a waterfall. You set a bolt and redirect or rebelay in situations. Sometimes there is nothing to rig to as far as breakdown goes. Or you are on the surface and there are no trees or breakdown nearby. Finally, sometimes you reach a dome in a cave which is only seen from the bottom. So you need to do a dome climb up it. This typically involves setting bolts as well, though sometimes trad gear can be used. The impact of a bolt isn't very great. Cavers typically remove the hangars just leaving a hole when expedition caving. After all, they will hopefully need the hangars for something new shortly thereafter.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. I mean you can avoid it by not caving if it's not possible without permanently defacing the rock.
    - planteen 8y ago
      The Huatla system is over 50 miles long and probably has a few dozen bolts, strategically placed at vertical pitches. Nobody is drilling holes in the rock for the hell of it. The bolts will be drilled into dirty limestone, not formations. If you have this attitude and you only free solo when you climb, I concede. You are a bad-ass. But if you are a trad climber, give me a break. Popular trad routes are painfully obvious, especially in sandstone.

et2o 8y ago

They could send another drone ;)

chrisseaton 8y ago

> Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. They're literally drilling holes into the wall in one of the photos. Not exactly 'leave nothing but footprints' is it? The same as climbers who drill bolts - I'm not sure why they excuse themselves from the most basic of the outdoor codes.

sideshowb 8y ago
If bolts bother you for that reason why not stop leaving footsteps? Hiking trails are far more visible. As are worn trad climbing gear placements sometimes
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sideshowb 8y ago
The caving ethic is more akin to Victorian alpinism
- planteen 8y ago
  How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    "Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
    - Mister_X 8y ago
      You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
      - Mister_X 8y ago
        There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
  - sideshowb 8y ago
- Mister_X 8y ago
  Your broad generalization doesn't work with Caving though, this thread is specifically about cave exploration and Victorian alpinism wasn't about that at all, it was a frivolous "sport" of the times. They weren't surveying and drafting maps like these cavers are. They weren't noting on those maps where interesting or important geologic or paleontological finds are like Cavers do. Cave explorers are adding to the body of scientific knowledge in ways that mountaineering could never accomplish.
  - sideshowb 8y ago
    The Victorians thought they were too. If it wasn't on facebook, I mean if you didn't get a summit barometer reading the ascent might as well not have happened ;) In all seriousness the wave of alpine exploration from the 1800s on was responsible for dispelling myths such as dragons living in the mountains. It was very much linked to a scientific worldview. My generalization is broad as I typed it on a mobile. There is a lot more subtlety to all of this for sure. I guess I meant in my experience of caving the emphasis is on getting there and back alive without damaging any pretty bits. Contrast rock climbing where people take significant risks in order to avoid "cheating". To some extent the latter ethic has transferred into modern Alpinism also which is why I referred to historic ethics. Cavers won't take quite the same support team of servants to get somewhere, though cave divers often rope a buddy or two into carrying their gear.
planteen 8y ago
Cavers will use natural rigging when it is available. Many pits are bell shaped since they form from the bottom up. So they are quite easy to rig an rappel. You tie off to some breakdown or perhaps a tree if you are on the surface and one is convenient. Your rappel rubs for maybe a few feet on the way down and then you are completely free. To get back up, you often use a system called a frog with ascenders (jumars). Trad rock climbing out of such a pit would be impossible and do far more damage. There are often formations on the walls and it climbing such an overhung situation would be impossible for most mortals who can't handle a 5.15. But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. You need to rig such that your rope won't cut itself from rubbing as you ascend. Or perhaps you need to avoid a waterfall. You set a bolt and redirect or rebelay in situations. Sometimes there is nothing to rig to as far as breakdown goes. Or you are on the surface and there are no trees or breakdown nearby. Finally, sometimes you reach a dome in a cave which is only seen from the bottom. So you need to do a dome climb up it. This typically involves setting bolts as well, though sometimes trad gear can be used. The impact of a bolt isn't very great. Cavers typically remove the hangars just leaving a hole when expedition caving. After all, they will hopefully need the hangars for something new shortly thereafter.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. I mean you can avoid it by not caving if it's not possible without permanently defacing the rock.
  - planteen 8y ago
    The Huatla system is over 50 miles long and probably has a few dozen bolts, strategically placed at vertical pitches. Nobody is drilling holes in the rock for the hell of it. The bolts will be drilled into dirty limestone, not formations. If you have this attitude and you only free solo when you climb, I concede. You are a bad-ass. But if you are a trad climber, give me a break. Popular trad routes are painfully obvious, especially in sandstone.