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This seems like a potentially great use case for robots. I wonder if any cave exploration teams have used robots to map and survey cave systems.

fractallyte 8y ago
Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. While robot probes seem a good idea, if anything goes wrong with the device, someone's going to have to recover it...
- et2o 8y ago
  They could send another drone ;)
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. They're literally drilling holes into the wall in one of the photos. Not exactly 'leave nothing but footprints' is it? The same as climbers who drill bolts - I'm not sure why they excuse themselves from the most basic of the outdoor codes.
  - sideshowb 8y ago
    If bolts bother you for that reason why not stop leaving footsteps? Hiking trails are far more visible. As are worn trad climbing gear placements sometimes
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - sideshowb 8y ago
    The caving ethic is more akin to Victorian alpinism
    - planteen 8y ago
      How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.
      - kazinator 8y ago
        "Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
        Mister_X 8y ago
        You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
        Mister_X 8y ago
        There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
  - planteen 8y ago
    Cavers will use natural rigging when it is available. Many pits are bell shaped since they form from the bottom up. So they are quite easy to rig an rappel. You tie off to some breakdown or perhaps a tree if you are on the surface and one is convenient. Your rappel rubs for maybe a few feet on the way down and then you are completely free. To get back up, you often use a system called a frog with ascenders (jumars). Trad rock climbing out of such a pit would be impossible and do far more damage. There are often formations on the walls and it climbing such an overhung situation would be impossible for most mortals who can't handle a 5.15. But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. You need to rig such that your rope won't cut itself from rubbing as you ascend. Or perhaps you need to avoid a waterfall. You set a bolt and redirect or rebelay in situations. Sometimes there is nothing to rig to as far as breakdown goes. Or you are on the surface and there are no trees or breakdown nearby. Finally, sometimes you reach a dome in a cave which is only seen from the bottom. So you need to do a dome climb up it. This typically involves setting bolts as well, though sometimes trad gear can be used. The impact of a bolt isn't very great. Cavers typically remove the hangars just leaving a hole when expedition caving. After all, they will hopefully need the hangars for something new shortly thereafter.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. I mean you can avoid it by not caving if it's not possible without permanently defacing the rock.
      - planteen 8y ago
        The Huatla system is over 50 miles long and probably has a few dozen bolts, strategically placed at vertical pitches. Nobody is drilling holes in the rock for the hell of it. The bolts will be drilled into dirty limestone, not formations. If you have this attitude and you only free solo when you climb, I concede. You are a bad-ass. But if you are a trad climber, give me a break. Popular trad routes are painfully obvious, especially in sandstone.
georgecmu 8y ago
https://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/pub4/fairfield_nathaniel_2007_1/fairfield_nathaniel_2007_1.pdf https://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/pub4/fairfield_nathaniel_20... In May 2005, the DEPTHX team lowered a 32-sonar probe, called the DropSonde, into Zacaton to a depth ´ of 200m (Figure 1) (Fairfield et al. 2006). A similar probe, called the Digital Wall Mapper (DWM) was used in 1998-1999 to map several kilometers of the Wakulla Springs cave system in Florida (Stone et al. 2000). The DWM was a diver-driven sensor sled, and the DropSonde was simply lowered on a cable from a barge. Both probes were based around a ring laser gyro IMU, two depth sensors, and a ring of 32 pencil beam sonars arrayed radially The first author is a principal engineer at Waymo and has been at google since 2009.
glennon 8y ago
As noted by @georgecmu, drones for mapping underwater caves have been used for many years--evolving to autonomy from hand-held & scooter-mounted LIDAR mapping arrays. Barbara am Ende wrote a 2001 article in Computer Graphics on such efforts (paywalled: https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/cg/2001/02/mcg2001020014.html https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/cg/2001/02/mcg2001020014.... ). I am aware of a variety of drones that have been deployed in air-filled caves too--from cameras on balloons (tall chambers with high leads) and standard copter drones to rubble-searching robots. Tethered cameras are occasionally used to evaluate obstructions (e.g. narrow cracks and breakdown). Overall, though, in-person exploration is satisfying and compelling. Robotic tech in air-filled caves mostly is used either for demonstration purposes or, in rarer cases, to determine the best locations to exert more human effort. Another branch of study is the discovery of subsurface voids from the surface using ground-penetrating radar, microgravity, electrical resistivity, or other geophysical methods. A robot could be equipped with the sensors in dangerous or inaccessible locations, such as off-planet or war zones. DARPA had an interest in this in the early 2000s to locate hostiles in caves, though I do not know its current priority.
- not_kurt_godel 8y ago
  In college I did a side project exploring the possibility of mapping caves by releasing a swarm of flies with bits of wire glued to their bodies and bouncing radio waves off them to get a 3D mapping. Unfortunately the length of the wires required was too long for regular flies to carry them (a little over an inch) but in retrospect I wonder if it would have been feasible to use a larger insect like cockroaches...
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Maybe not a great idea to introduce an outside insect species into a isolated environment like a cave.
    - not_kurt_godel 8y ago
      Ha, great point! The whole idea is a bit silly and probably wouldn't be practical, but even if was, that would almost definitely make it a no-go for cave exploration.
planteen 8y ago
The terrain in some caves is so varied it seems like current state of the art robotics would have trouble. You might have to crawl for an hour, climb up and down breakdown, then rappel 600 feet into a pit. While a drone certainly could handle many pits, getting it there would be non-trivial.
- madeuptempacct 8y ago
  The main problem for drones would be keeping a connection, unless fully autonomous. Then, the second problem is running out of power with no way to recharge whatsoever.
Mister_X 8y ago
Cave exploration is a lousy place for any sort of robot due to the ever changing terrain. Most caves worth exploring have vertical entrances, one has to rappel into, let's see a robot do that and then climb a 15 foot nuisance drop, then open a heavy culvert door with a blast of wind either coming at you or sucking in pulling on the door, then climb down a ladder in that culvert, traverse some more passage, then rappel off Boulder falls, and on to the Rift, with has a safety line one has to clip onto so when your go around the Freakout Traverse you don't die if you fall, and so on... Yes, this is Lech. The floor is almost never flat, the ceiling height changes from 100's of feet to mere inches, the passage widths vary immensely, there are pools of water, streams, loose rock, sand, boulders, some the size of houses in Lechuguilla and other large caves, narrow channels in the floor, it's a mess. No robot currently in production could traverse even the most featureless of beginners caves. It will be decades before robots are ready to explore caves.

fractallyte 8y ago

Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. While robot probes seem a good idea, if anything goes wrong with the device, someone's going to have to recover it...

et2o 8y ago
They could send another drone ;)
chrisseaton 8y ago
> Caving expeditions in pristine environments go to great lengths not to leave any trace of their passage. They're literally drilling holes into the wall in one of the photos. Not exactly 'leave nothing but footprints' is it? The same as climbers who drill bolts - I'm not sure why they excuse themselves from the most basic of the outdoor codes.
- sideshowb 8y ago
  If bolts bother you for that reason why not stop leaving footsteps? Hiking trails are far more visible. As are worn trad climbing gear placements sometimes
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- sideshowb 8y ago
  The caving ethic is more akin to Victorian alpinism
  - planteen 8y ago
    How so? Cavers will bring a change of clothes to avoid getting mud on a sensitive part of a cave with pristine formations. When entering virgin passage in dry caves like Lech, they very carefully plot a way through the room. Some rooms have been left untouched for future generations because they are so fragile, beautiful, and impossible not to disturb.
    - kazinator 8y ago
      "Cavers" is a surname; these people are "spelunkers". :)
      - Mister_X 8y ago
        You are correct, but only in the sense that average people call Cavers "spelunkers". Those who participate in original hard core exploration call themselves Cavers and they are highly trained individuals. We say "Cavers rescue spelunkers", because we do. I used to be on a call-out list ready to be flown anywhere in North America for a Cave rescue, I do know what I'm talking about here. I know hard core Cavers doing original exploration all around the World, they call themselves Cavers. It's a small elite World, but we exist and we're Cavers. Only the most pedantic of people would call Cavers spelunkers after learning about hard core caver culture/nomenclature.
        Mister_X 8y ago
        There are several types of people who visit caves. Tourists, who visit "show caves", caves made reasonably safe for average people to visit. Spelunkers are average untrained people who on a lark, go into a "wild" cave seeking adventure, often woefully ill equipped. "Real" Spelunkers, scientists and geologists who are often not very well trained in cave exploration because they are Corporate or Educational professionals and going into caves is a rare part of their job. Sport or Tourist Cavers, those who have sought out some training in safely visiting a cave, often through a Grotto (Chapter) of the National Speleological Society. This is the most common of trained cave visitor, they tend to visit well know "safe", horizontal caves. Vertical Cavers, this is where the separation of hard core and sport cavers starts. These are cavers who have vertical rope work training, enabling them to rappel into and climb out of caves that have pit entrances. Project/Hard Core cavers, these are the Worlds elite cave explorers, a small group of amazing people from all walks of life who share the passion of exploring caves that are technically difficult and extremely dangerous. There are even more minor distinctions within the caving world, but this is enough to chew on right now.
- planteen 8y ago
  Cavers will use natural rigging when it is available. Many pits are bell shaped since they form from the bottom up. So they are quite easy to rig an rappel. You tie off to some breakdown or perhaps a tree if you are on the surface and one is convenient. Your rappel rubs for maybe a few feet on the way down and then you are completely free. To get back up, you often use a system called a frog with ascenders (jumars). Trad rock climbing out of such a pit would be impossible and do far more damage. There are often formations on the walls and it climbing such an overhung situation would be impossible for most mortals who can't handle a 5.15. But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. You need to rig such that your rope won't cut itself from rubbing as you ascend. Or perhaps you need to avoid a waterfall. You set a bolt and redirect or rebelay in situations. Sometimes there is nothing to rig to as far as breakdown goes. Or you are on the surface and there are no trees or breakdown nearby. Finally, sometimes you reach a dome in a cave which is only seen from the bottom. So you need to do a dome climb up it. This typically involves setting bolts as well, though sometimes trad gear can be used. The impact of a bolt isn't very great. Cavers typically remove the hangars just leaving a hole when expedition caving. After all, they will hopefully need the hangars for something new shortly thereafter.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > But sometimes bolts are unavoidable. I mean you can avoid it by not caving if it's not possible without permanently defacing the rock.
    - planteen 8y ago
      The Huatla system is over 50 miles long and probably has a few dozen bolts, strategically placed at vertical pitches. Nobody is drilling holes in the rock for the hell of it. The bolts will be drilled into dirty limestone, not formations. If you have this attitude and you only free solo when you climb, I concede. You are a bad-ass. But if you are a trad climber, give me a break. Popular trad routes are painfully obvious, especially in sandstone.

georgecmu 8y ago

https://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/pub4/fairfield_nathaniel_2007_1/fairfield_nathaniel_2007_1.pdf https://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/pub4/fairfield_nathaniel_20... In May 2005, the DEPTHX team lowered a 32-sonar probe, called the DropSonde, into Zacaton to a depth ´ of 200m (Figure 1) (Fairfield et al. 2006). A similar probe, called the Digital Wall Mapper (DWM) was used in 1998-1999 to map several kilometers of the Wakulla Springs cave system in Florida (Stone et al. 2000). The DWM was a diver-driven sensor sled, and the DropSonde was simply lowered on a cable from a barge. Both probes were based around a ring laser gyro IMU, two depth sensors, and a ring of 32 pencil beam sonars arrayed radially The first author is a principal engineer at Waymo and has been at google since 2009.

glennon 8y ago

As noted by @georgecmu, drones for mapping underwater caves have been used for many years--evolving to autonomy from hand-held & scooter-mounted LIDAR mapping arrays. Barbara am Ende wrote a 2001 article in Computer Graphics on such efforts (paywalled: https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/cg/2001/02/mcg2001020014.html https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/cg/2001/02/mcg2001020014.... ). I am aware of a variety of drones that have been deployed in air-filled caves too--from cameras on balloons (tall chambers with high leads) and standard copter drones to rubble-searching robots. Tethered cameras are occasionally used to evaluate obstructions (e.g. narrow cracks and breakdown). Overall, though, in-person exploration is satisfying and compelling. Robotic tech in air-filled caves mostly is used either for demonstration purposes or, in rarer cases, to determine the best locations to exert more human effort. Another branch of study is the discovery of subsurface voids from the surface using ground-penetrating radar, microgravity, electrical resistivity, or other geophysical methods. A robot could be equipped with the sensors in dangerous or inaccessible locations, such as off-planet or war zones. DARPA had an interest in this in the early 2000s to locate hostiles in caves, though I do not know its current priority.

not_kurt_godel 8y ago
In college I did a side project exploring the possibility of mapping caves by releasing a swarm of flies with bits of wire glued to their bodies and bouncing radio waves off them to get a 3D mapping. Unfortunately the length of the wires required was too long for regular flies to carry them (a little over an inch) but in retrospect I wonder if it would have been feasible to use a larger insect like cockroaches...
- ams6110 8y ago
  Maybe not a great idea to introduce an outside insect species into a isolated environment like a cave.
  - not_kurt_godel 8y ago
    Ha, great point! The whole idea is a bit silly and probably wouldn't be practical, but even if was, that would almost definitely make it a no-go for cave exploration.

planteen 8y ago

The terrain in some caves is so varied it seems like current state of the art robotics would have trouble. You might have to crawl for an hour, climb up and down breakdown, then rappel 600 feet into a pit. While a drone certainly could handle many pits, getting it there would be non-trivial.

madeuptempacct 8y ago
The main problem for drones would be keeping a connection, unless fully autonomous. Then, the second problem is running out of power with no way to recharge whatsoever.

Mister_X 8y ago

Cave exploration is a lousy place for any sort of robot due to the ever changing terrain. Most caves worth exploring have vertical entrances, one has to rappel into, let's see a robot do that and then climb a 15 foot nuisance drop, then open a heavy culvert door with a blast of wind either coming at you or sucking in pulling on the door, then climb down a ladder in that culvert, traverse some more passage, then rappel off Boulder falls, and on to the Rift, with has a safety line one has to clip onto so when your go around the Freakout Traverse you don't die if you fall, and so on... Yes, this is Lech. The floor is almost never flat, the ceiling height changes from 100's of feet to mere inches, the passage widths vary immensely, there are pools of water, streams, loose rock, sand, boulders, some the size of houses in Lechuguilla and other large caves, narrow channels in the floor, it's a mess. No robot currently in production could traverse even the most featureless of beginners caves. It will be decades before robots are ready to explore caves.