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The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. MacOS devs do an

The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. MacOS devs do and will go out of their way to make sure their software is not just usable, but a sheer pleasure to use in every way possible. Yes, there are exceptions (I'm looking at you, Apple, with your Xcode and your Finder) but for the most part that's just the way things are in the MacOS app ecosystem. Open source, on the other hand, is like trying to shave with a razor blade with no handle. It's a hard sell to get people to donate to projects that they know are going to cut them at some point.

patrickthebold 8y ago
A 'donate' button isn't a business model. Some open source projects have a business model built around paid support. By all means please donate to projects you want to support. But 'donation' implies you aren't getting something in return. Otherwise it would be a 'purchase'.
jrs95 8y ago
Speaking of exceptions to this...they really need to fix their damn multi monitor support. It’s one of the few things Windows is far better at. I get that a small number of Mac users are even affected by this, but man would I appreciate that a lot more than Dark Mode. And I love Dark Mode.
- xur17 8y ago
  What issues have you experienced with their multimonitor support?
  - jrs95 8y ago
    It takes a long time to wake from sleep, sometimes over 30 seconds with monitors flickering on and off. Which monitor displays which desktop will change after unplugging and plugging back in, or even after sleeping and waking back up.
    - rocqua 8y ago
      I've had issues on this with windows when using DisplayPort Daisy chaining. Now I've switched to using separate cables. The point being that anecdotally, windows doesn't have it down either.
      - jrs95 8y ago
        I believe part of my issue might be that I'm using 1 HDMI port and another mDP to HDMI converter. From what I've read it seems like people tend to have these problems when using converters. So I guess if I were running directly off of mDP I'd probably be having a better time.
- sudouser 8y ago
  turn spaces on
pxeboot 8y ago
I actually find open source developers to be far more passionate about their projects than developers of commercial software. This makes sense to me, as they work on these projects because they want to, not because they have to.
- ropeadopepope 8y ago
  Passion isn't a barometer of anything but whether the developer likes his job. It certainly doesn't translate into better or more user friendly software.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    In OSS I tend to see the opposite. The more “passionate” developers tend to be passionate about some implementation detail (like respect for a particular standard, the Unix philosophy, Stallman-compliant licensing, etc) without giving a crap about the actual user experience in day to day usage. I see more passion in paid software in macOS when I see a beautiful UI because it shows that the developer actually wants me to use and enjoy his creation day to day.
    - watwut 8y ago
      It is more that well run project has testers and analyst and manager that will open tickets for what you are not passionate about and missed. So, you have to fix it whether passionate or not, it is more about result then whether you feel like doing it. Then, there are also badly run commetial projects, which are crap despite being paid for.
- gaius 8y ago
  Passionate about making the installation process seamless on every distro? And all the other mundane, tedious tasks that are expected by users used to commercial software? My OSS project, which I haven’t worked on in ages to be fair, I never made any effort to make it work anywhere but on Debian for example. I know some people used it in Suse and RHEL so it can’t have been too painful but I never had that as a goal.
sheetjs 8y ago
> the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers. Open source licenses explicitly indemnify the authors. Receiving something for free and expecting something more is the essence of the entitled behavior that frustrate and burn out many open source developers. A donation is a voluntary gift. Like any other gift, a donation to an open source project is understood to have no strings tied to it. Giving a dollar a month to a project doesn't entitle you to round-the-clock support. If you expect something more, have a conversation with the developers to work out a plan. P.S.: we (https://sheetjs.com/ https://sheetjs.com/) build and maintain open source projects (our largest is https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx) and we turn down donations precisely because many people expect something in return. Instead, we offer actual paid support plans and additional features.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Typical paid proprietary licenses also explicitly indemnify the authors.
- ropeadopepope 8y ago
  > An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers. I meant a subconscious obligation, not a legal one. When somebody gives you a gift, it puts pressure on you (subconscious and social) to reciprocate. You see it all the time with youtube streamers, who frequently cater their content to their subscribers wishes to keep them happy. And to clarify, the streamers don't do this because their users are unhappy or protesting. They do it because they feel a sense of obligation to give their subscribers what they want because the subscribers were generous enough to give the streamer money. For whatever reason, this phenomenon is completely lacking in the open source community. Instead, the opposite seems to occur. OSS developers are actively hostile toward their users, both vocally and how they react to criticism that their software isn't user friendly or respectful of their user's time. Anybody who has spent hours trying to set up a piece of OSS and then made the mistake of asking the developer for help can attest to this.
  - deleted 8y ago
michaelmrose 8y ago
"Open source, on the other hand, is like trying to shave with a razor blade with no handle. It's a hard sell to get people to donate to projects that they know are going to cut them at some point." This sounds whiny and more importantly it isn't true its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop. Don't make things more complicated than they are.
- ropeadopepope 8y ago
  > This sounds whiny Are you an OSS developer by chance? > its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop. The Apple third party app ecosystem proves you wrong. Users are willing to pay for good software, even if there are free alternatives available.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making. People are disinclined to fund open source projects that they can get for free. If you rely on voluntary donations you will find yourself poor. They may be willing to pay for value added only if getting something for nothing isn't an option.
    - ropeadopepope 8y ago
      > You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making. Then communicate your point better. Losing the hostility would be a great start.
- electricEmu 8y ago
  I would say the blade analogy is fairly correct. OSS isn't polished many times. The installer might be missing. Documentation is out of date or incomplete. The plug-in manager requires using the file system explorer directly. All of that cuts. OSS can be death by a thousand cuts at times.
bjpbakker 8y ago
> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users This is as much true as it is for developers of proprietary software. There are many examples on both sides that make your statement false, also as many to make it true.
kazinator 8y ago
I have received numerous donations in the past. They were never accompanied by any specific request to fix something or make a feature. So even if I wanted to do something in the software out of a sense of obligation to those users, I would not have known what that is. Realistically, a $100 donation doesn't get much of my time anyway. It's more of a pat on the back; people like what you're doing, and the way you're doing it; so keep going. (Don't do anything differently, just more of it.)
progval 8y ago
> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. I always go out of my way to help users who showed gratitude to me, either with a donation (those are very rare) or by being extra nice to me last time I helped them. But obviously, users who insult my software and myself every time they have an issue come last on my list of priorities.

patrickthebold 8y ago

A 'donate' button isn't a business model. Some open source projects have a business model built around paid support. By all means please donate to projects you want to support. But 'donation' implies you aren't getting something in return. Otherwise it would be a 'purchase'.

jrs95 8y ago

Speaking of exceptions to this...they really need to fix their damn multi monitor support. It’s one of the few things Windows is far better at. I get that a small number of Mac users are even affected by this, but man would I appreciate that a lot more than Dark Mode. And I love Dark Mode.

xur17 8y ago
What issues have you experienced with their multimonitor support?
- jrs95 8y ago
  It takes a long time to wake from sleep, sometimes over 30 seconds with monitors flickering on and off. Which monitor displays which desktop will change after unplugging and plugging back in, or even after sleeping and waking back up.
  - rocqua 8y ago
    I've had issues on this with windows when using DisplayPort Daisy chaining. Now I've switched to using separate cables. The point being that anecdotally, windows doesn't have it down either.
    - jrs95 8y ago
      I believe part of my issue might be that I'm using 1 HDMI port and another mDP to HDMI converter. From what I've read it seems like people tend to have these problems when using converters. So I guess if I were running directly off of mDP I'd probably be having a better time.
sudouser 8y ago
turn spaces on

pxeboot 8y ago

I actually find open source developers to be far more passionate about their projects than developers of commercial software. This makes sense to me, as they work on these projects because they want to, not because they have to.

ropeadopepope 8y ago
Passion isn't a barometer of anything but whether the developer likes his job. It certainly doesn't translate into better or more user friendly software.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  In OSS I tend to see the opposite. The more “passionate” developers tend to be passionate about some implementation detail (like respect for a particular standard, the Unix philosophy, Stallman-compliant licensing, etc) without giving a crap about the actual user experience in day to day usage. I see more passion in paid software in macOS when I see a beautiful UI because it shows that the developer actually wants me to use and enjoy his creation day to day.
  - watwut 8y ago
    It is more that well run project has testers and analyst and manager that will open tickets for what you are not passionate about and missed. So, you have to fix it whether passionate or not, it is more about result then whether you feel like doing it. Then, there are also badly run commetial projects, which are crap despite being paid for.
gaius 8y ago
Passionate about making the installation process seamless on every distro? And all the other mundane, tedious tasks that are expected by users used to commercial software? My OSS project, which I haven’t worked on in ages to be fair, I never made any effort to make it work anywhere but on Debian for example. I know some people used it in Suse and RHEL so it can’t have been too painful but I never had that as a goal.

sheetjs 8y ago

> the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers. Open source licenses explicitly indemnify the authors. Receiving something for free and expecting something more is the essence of the entitled behavior that frustrate and burn out many open source developers. A donation is a voluntary gift. Like any other gift, a donation to an open source project is understood to have no strings tied to it. Giving a dollar a month to a project doesn't entitle you to round-the-clock support. If you expect something more, have a conversation with the developers to work out a plan. P.S.: we (https://sheetjs.com/ https://sheetjs.com/) build and maintain open source projects (our largest is https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx) and we turn down donations precisely because many people expect something in return. Instead, we offer actual paid support plans and additional features.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Typical paid proprietary licenses also explicitly indemnify the authors.
ropeadopepope 8y ago
> An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers. I meant a subconscious obligation, not a legal one. When somebody gives you a gift, it puts pressure on you (subconscious and social) to reciprocate. You see it all the time with youtube streamers, who frequently cater their content to their subscribers wishes to keep them happy. And to clarify, the streamers don't do this because their users are unhappy or protesting. They do it because they feel a sense of obligation to give their subscribers what they want because the subscribers were generous enough to give the streamer money. For whatever reason, this phenomenon is completely lacking in the open source community. Instead, the opposite seems to occur. OSS developers are actively hostile toward their users, both vocally and how they react to criticism that their software isn't user friendly or respectful of their user's time. Anybody who has spent hours trying to set up a piece of OSS and then made the mistake of asking the developer for help can attest to this.
- deleted 8y ago

michaelmrose 8y ago

"Open source, on the other hand, is like trying to shave with a razor blade with no handle. It's a hard sell to get people to donate to projects that they know are going to cut them at some point." This sounds whiny and more importantly it isn't true its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop. Don't make things more complicated than they are.

ropeadopepope 8y ago
> This sounds whiny Are you an OSS developer by chance? > its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop. The Apple third party app ecosystem proves you wrong. Users are willing to pay for good software, even if there are free alternatives available.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making. People are disinclined to fund open source projects that they can get for free. If you rely on voluntary donations you will find yourself poor. They may be willing to pay for value added only if getting something for nothing isn't an option.
  - ropeadopepope 8y ago
    > You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making. Then communicate your point better. Losing the hostility would be a great start.
electricEmu 8y ago
I would say the blade analogy is fairly correct. OSS isn't polished many times. The installer might be missing. Documentation is out of date or incomplete. The plug-in manager requires using the file system explorer directly. All of that cuts. OSS can be death by a thousand cuts at times.

bjpbakker 8y ago

> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users This is as much true as it is for developers of proprietary software. There are many examples on both sides that make your statement false, also as many to make it true.

kazinator 8y ago

I have received numerous donations in the past. They were never accompanied by any specific request to fix something or make a feature. So even if I wanted to do something in the software out of a sense of obligation to those users, I would not have known what that is. Realistically, a $100 donation doesn't get much of my time anyway. It's more of a pat on the back; people like what you're doing, and the way you're doing it; so keep going. (Don't do anything differently, just more of it.)

progval 8y ago

> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. I always go out of my way to help users who showed gratitude to me, either with a donation (those are very rare) or by being extra nice to me last time I helped them. But obviously, users who insult my software and myself every time they have an issue come last on my list of priorities.