3 ms·

Some of the comments here help remind me to shut up whenever I find myself thinking dismissive thoughts about a caricature of someone's views when I don't reall

Some of the comments here help remind me to shut up whenever I find myself thinking dismissive thoughts about a caricature of someone's views when I don't really have insights into what they think. It's far too easy to get a vague impression from a few tidbits, hearsay, and groupthink. It's worth practicing saying "I don't know" a lot more. It's crazy how much people are willing to attack others for holding supposed views without bothering to actually verify the view being held. The vast, vast majority of criticism of Richard Stallman comes from people mischaracterizing his views. It's as though grappling with his actual arguments is just too much of a threat or something. More likely, it's just intellectual sloppiness — posting crap on some online forum without bothering to care about being reasonable.

JdeBP 8y ago
Enjoy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17093957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17093957 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094036 . (-:
- quadrangle 8y ago
  Well, those actually seem totally different from what I'm getting at. I think people who understand Richard can still have valid arguments about his positives and negatives as a leader etc. I can't tell quickly skimming those threads (even their context) whether these are people with real understanding bringing up particular reasonable complaints in just absurdly hyperbolic fashion or whether they are ignorant people with invalid criticisms. Either way, the comments aren't of the simple style where they just say that RMS thinks X and are factually wrong.
m_mueller 8y ago
isn't your comment intellectually sloppy by simply appealing to authority rather than providing actual counterarguments?
- quadrangle 8y ago
  Here's a rewording: all of us should be very careful not to put words in others mouths, especially when doing so with little knowledge and understanding. That's it. It just so happens that I know Richard's perspectives very well. I've not only read most of his writings, heard/watched several recordings of his, and heard him speak half a dozen times… I've also had several conversations with him directly and also with several people who know him well. So, I have a pretty good understanding of his views. It's only in that light that I'm able to see how rash and poorly-thought-out many of the other people's comments are when they make bold and quite inaccurate assertions about what and how Richard thinks. It's not that you should accept my authority in some sort of logical way that would prove anything I'm saying as true. It's just incidental that I have knowledge in this case that allows me to recognize gross intellectual sloppiness in others in this topic. Asking you to blindly accept my claims about Richard would be closer to appeal-to-authority. But my point is that I want to be wary not to be sloppy the way I see others being. It's a commentary about being overconfident in general. What I'm saying in my meta comment is that there's a risk that I could or even have done the same sloppiness in describing other people who I don't really understand as well. I could imagine writing some dismissive caricature of someone I have negative impression of, such as say Jeff Sessions, for example. And I would be better not to claim to know anything there. All I really know about Sessions is a few bits of impressions from a small number of places I've seen reference to him in the news… If I had to bet, I'd go with my impressions, but it would be careless of me to weigh in with some assertion about what he thinks in the context of some comment-section on some news. I have no real knowledge there, and at most should describe my impressions and ask questions rather than make bold claims about what Sessions believes.
Ewrety 8y ago
RMS is much bigger man than any HN poster so it doesn't really matter anyway. He has accomplished much more than any SF shill ever will.
- quadrangle 8y ago
  How is your comment constructive in any way? At best, it seems to be dismissing my point that I and others should keep trying to be our best in light of seeing others be sloppy. At worst, you're suggesting people don't bother speaking up at all when others post b.s. nonsense. If you ask RMS, he'll say it definitely matters and that we all need to not only work to be our best but need to speak up whenever we see bad ideas being spread.
Doxin 8y ago
I think the main problem so to speak with RMS is that his predictions are usually: a) terrifying and distopic b) correct It's like staring into the abyss, people reflexively want to look away.

JdeBP 8y ago

Enjoy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17093957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17093957 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094036 . (-:

quadrangle 8y ago
Well, those actually seem totally different from what I'm getting at. I think people who understand Richard can still have valid arguments about his positives and negatives as a leader etc. I can't tell quickly skimming those threads (even their context) whether these are people with real understanding bringing up particular reasonable complaints in just absurdly hyperbolic fashion or whether they are ignorant people with invalid criticisms. Either way, the comments aren't of the simple style where they just say that RMS thinks X and are factually wrong.

m_mueller 8y ago

isn't your comment intellectually sloppy by simply appealing to authority rather than providing actual counterarguments?

quadrangle 8y ago
Here's a rewording: all of us should be very careful not to put words in others mouths, especially when doing so with little knowledge and understanding. That's it. It just so happens that I know Richard's perspectives very well. I've not only read most of his writings, heard/watched several recordings of his, and heard him speak half a dozen times… I've also had several conversations with him directly and also with several people who know him well. So, I have a pretty good understanding of his views. It's only in that light that I'm able to see how rash and poorly-thought-out many of the other people's comments are when they make bold and quite inaccurate assertions about what and how Richard thinks. It's not that you should accept my authority in some sort of logical way that would prove anything I'm saying as true. It's just incidental that I have knowledge in this case that allows me to recognize gross intellectual sloppiness in others in this topic. Asking you to blindly accept my claims about Richard would be closer to appeal-to-authority. But my point is that I want to be wary not to be sloppy the way I see others being. It's a commentary about being overconfident in general. What I'm saying in my meta comment is that there's a risk that I could or even have done the same sloppiness in describing other people who I don't really understand as well. I could imagine writing some dismissive caricature of someone I have negative impression of, such as say Jeff Sessions, for example. And I would be better not to claim to know anything there. All I really know about Sessions is a few bits of impressions from a small number of places I've seen reference to him in the news… If I had to bet, I'd go with my impressions, but it would be careless of me to weigh in with some assertion about what he thinks in the context of some comment-section on some news. I have no real knowledge there, and at most should describe my impressions and ask questions rather than make bold claims about what Sessions believes.

Ewrety 8y ago

RMS is much bigger man than any HN poster so it doesn't really matter anyway. He has accomplished much more than any SF shill ever will.

quadrangle 8y ago
How is your comment constructive in any way? At best, it seems to be dismissing my point that I and others should keep trying to be our best in light of seeing others be sloppy. At worst, you're suggesting people don't bother speaking up at all when others post b.s. nonsense. If you ask RMS, he'll say it definitely matters and that we all need to not only work to be our best but need to speak up whenever we see bad ideas being spread.

Doxin 8y ago

I think the main problem so to speak with RMS is that his predictions are usually: a) terrifying and distopic b) correct It's like staring into the abyss, people reflexively want to look away.