5 ms·

Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 stable release

61 points by claudiojulio 8y ago

tannhaeuser 8y ago
Is there a meta-init system of sorts that you could target as package developer and then have it generate sysvinit, systemd, bsd rc artifacts for you?
- TimWolla 8y ago
  I am not aware of such a thing, but SystemD supports the "legacy" SysV init scripts out of the box. This feature is required for certain Debian packages, as not all of them ship with proper SystemD units, yet. see: https://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/debugging-systemd-sysv-init-compat https://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/debugging-systemd-sysv-ini... https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-systemd-sysv-generator/ https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-systemd-sysv-g...
  - JdeBP 8y ago
    Its name is systemd and Devuan does not permit lovers of init freedom to use it. * https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=systemd-sysv&release=ascii https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=sys... * https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=names&keywords=systemd-sysv https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=na... And in any case, the unit files that it auto-generates are (alas! from necessity) too generic to be completely useful, because they have a one size fits all approach that does not really work fully for anything. * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/233581/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/233581/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/394191/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/394191/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/387314/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/387314/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/386876/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/386876/5132
    - bionoid 8y ago
      > Its name is systemd and Devuan does not permit lovers of init freedom to use it. I don't understand your tone here. The Devuan project is ~150 packages on top of Debian that aim specifically to remove the systemd dependencies. "Init freedom lovers", as you put it, can still use Debian, no?
      - JdeBP 8y ago
        When you read the headlined article and other announcements you will understand that it is not how I put it.
- jbbarth 8y ago
  Maybe take a look at https://github.com/jordansissel/pleaserun https://github.com/jordansissel/pleaserun
JdeBP 8y ago
Dated the 18th of August 2006, I see. (-: Also, the WWW site announced in the release defaults to the previous release in its listbox. Devuan compared to Debian: * https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=runit&release=ascii https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=run... * https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=names&keywords=runit https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=na...
Freak_NL 8y ago
Apparently the name 'ASCII' fits into their scheme of using minor planet names¹ for each release. Kind of a confusing name though. I wouldn't want the connotation of “limited to a few characters only” for an operating system. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3568_ASCII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3568_ASCII
- acqq 8y ago
  Thanks. One more example of developers selecting rather user-unfriendly name for their product.
- cpmouter 8y ago
  Who's going to think a fork of Debian in 2018 is "limited to a few characters only"? Don't be ridiculous.
  - synotna 8y ago
    Forks are created for all sorts of crazy reasons. Perhaps someone has emoji creep via Unicode?
Walkman 8y ago
My day job is to build a custom operating system with systemd. Here are my thoughts about this: - The amount of stuff systemd is doing for you is insane. For example, I just learned the other day how the systemctl stop command works; first you can send any signal you want to the process from a script (ExecStop=), then if that fails and the process is still running, systemd takes over, sends SIGTERM, waits for a bit (TimeoutStopSec=) then sends a SIGKILL, optionally handling child processes. I wonder if every single of your shell "init script" handle shutdown that nicely... - I hear this complaint over and over, but systemd is NOT a monolith, you don't need to use every component. I have a system only with systemd as init, systemd-timesyncd (because I prefer it over ntpd) and that's it. - It has bugs, yes, every software has bugs. We even hit multiple of them, and some of them was fairly unpleasant and hard to find, but it can be known after a bit of digging, because development is on GitHub. Also I'm fairly sure your shell scripts don't have any bugs in them... - Shared knowledge. I never heard this argument, but you can jump to any other system and understand what's going on immediately if everyone uses the same init system. This is a huge advantage. Fragmenting the landscape with programs which inherently do the same thing just a bit differently is just a bad idea. I also hate split of talent and split of energy. Also, why on earth would you change to another init system ever? Or why would you ever change to an init system you don't know? - Boot time is way better with systemd. With sysvinit, there is no parallelization. You have runlevels and that's it. I never used more than three, but I use multiple targets (own custom target also) with systemd, because it's easy and you can finally name them and debug them and see the dependency chain for every target. - Sometimes we need to dig in to old sysvinit scripts and it is a terrible experience. It has still a lot of stanza-like parameters IN COMMENTS (LSB headers). Great idea... - Systemd DOES NOT break backward compatibility. It can use existing sysvinit scripts. Actually it even default to those if there is both a .service file and init script. - "One of the critical reasons against systemd concerns the lack of portability to other Unices, and the associated risk to see Linux-based systems detach from the UNIX world." Anyone seeing the irony here? :D - Man pages of systemd are quite nice! It's easy to learn from them. You don't even have to google, just check out the relevant man page. I never understood systemd hate, but I guess it comes from ignorance and lack of willingness to learn about modern system design. The people who made the fork are just a bunch of hissy kids or stuck in stone age who are lazy to learn a new system IMO.
qiqitori 8y ago
Endorsed by Bruce Perens: https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12212820&cid=56758364 https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12212820&cid=5675...

61 points by claudiojulio 8y ago

Is there a meta-init system of sorts that you could target as package developer and then have it generate sysvinit, systemd, bsd rc artifacts for you?

TimWolla 8y ago
I am not aware of such a thing, but SystemD supports the "legacy" SysV init scripts out of the box. This feature is required for certain Debian packages, as not all of them ship with proper SystemD units, yet. see: https://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/debugging-systemd-sysv-init-compat https://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/debugging-systemd-sysv-ini... https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-systemd-sysv-generator/ https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-systemd-sysv-g...
- JdeBP 8y ago
  Its name is systemd and Devuan does not permit lovers of init freedom to use it. * https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=systemd-sysv&release=ascii https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=sys... * https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=names&keywords=systemd-sysv https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=na... And in any case, the unit files that it auto-generates are (alas! from necessity) too generic to be completely useful, because they have a one size fits all approach that does not really work fully for anything. * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/233581/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/233581/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/394191/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/394191/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/387314/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/387314/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/386876/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/386876/5132
  - bionoid 8y ago
    > Its name is systemd and Devuan does not permit lovers of init freedom to use it. I don't understand your tone here. The Devuan project is ~150 packages on top of Debian that aim specifically to remove the systemd dependencies. "Init freedom lovers", as you put it, can still use Debian, no?
    - JdeBP 8y ago
      When you read the headlined article and other announcements you will understand that it is not how I put it.
jbbarth 8y ago
Maybe take a look at https://github.com/jordansissel/pleaserun https://github.com/jordansissel/pleaserun

JdeBP 8y ago

Dated the 18th of August 2006, I see. (-: Also, the WWW site announced in the release defaults to the previous release in its listbox. Devuan compared to Debian: * https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=runit&release=ascii https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=run... * https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=names&keywords=runit https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=stretch&searchon=na...

Freak_NL 8y ago

Apparently the name 'ASCII' fits into their scheme of using minor planet names¹ for each release. Kind of a confusing name though. I wouldn't want the connotation of “limited to a few characters only” for an operating system. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3568_ASCII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3568_ASCII

acqq 8y ago
Thanks. One more example of developers selecting rather user-unfriendly name for their product.
cpmouter 8y ago
Who's going to think a fork of Debian in 2018 is "limited to a few characters only"? Don't be ridiculous.
- synotna 8y ago
  Forks are created for all sorts of crazy reasons. Perhaps someone has emoji creep via Unicode?

Walkman 8y ago

My day job is to build a custom operating system with systemd. Here are my thoughts about this: - The amount of stuff systemd is doing for you is insane. For example, I just learned the other day how the systemctl stop command works; first you can send any signal you want to the process from a script (ExecStop=), then if that fails and the process is still running, systemd takes over, sends SIGTERM, waits for a bit (TimeoutStopSec=) then sends a SIGKILL, optionally handling child processes. I wonder if every single of your shell "init script" handle shutdown that nicely... - I hear this complaint over and over, but systemd is NOT a monolith, you don't need to use every component. I have a system only with systemd as init, systemd-timesyncd (because I prefer it over ntpd) and that's it. - It has bugs, yes, every software has bugs. We even hit multiple of them, and some of them was fairly unpleasant and hard to find, but it can be known after a bit of digging, because development is on GitHub. Also I'm fairly sure your shell scripts don't have any bugs in them... - Shared knowledge. I never heard this argument, but you can jump to any other system and understand what's going on immediately if everyone uses the same init system. This is a huge advantage. Fragmenting the landscape with programs which inherently do the same thing just a bit differently is just a bad idea. I also hate split of talent and split of energy. Also, why on earth would you change to another init system ever? Or why would you ever change to an init system you don't know? - Boot time is way better with systemd. With sysvinit, there is no parallelization. You have runlevels and that's it. I never used more than three, but I use multiple targets (own custom target also) with systemd, because it's easy and you can finally name them and debug them and see the dependency chain for every target. - Sometimes we need to dig in to old sysvinit scripts and it is a terrible experience. It has still a lot of stanza-like parameters IN COMMENTS (LSB headers). Great idea... - Systemd DOES NOT break backward compatibility. It can use existing sysvinit scripts. Actually it even default to those if there is both a .service file and init script. - "One of the critical reasons against systemd concerns the lack of portability to other Unices, and the associated risk to see Linux-based systems detach from the UNIX world." Anyone seeing the irony here? :D - Man pages of systemd are quite nice! It's easy to learn from them. You don't even have to google, just check out the relevant man page. I never understood systemd hate, but I guess it comes from ignorance and lack of willingness to learn about modern system design. The people who made the fork are just a bunch of hissy kids or stuck in stone age who are lazy to learn a new system IMO.

qiqitori 8y ago

Endorsed by Bruce Perens: https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12212820&cid=56758364 https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12212820&cid=5675...