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Is there a basis for quantum cognition beyond “I want my brain to be different from my cell phone.”?

raverbashing 8y ago
Probably not. Do neurons use some quantum mechanism to do work in a way we might not have figured out yet. Maybe. (But not in a "magical" way)
- mannykannot 8y ago
  That is pretty much what Hameroff's preoccupation with microtubules claims. Whether it avoids your definition of "magical" is for you to decide.
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    Ah I didn't know about his argument. My definition of "magical" would be that neurons use some non-obvious/non-linear quantum effect that is required for mammalian(?) levels of brain function. (Neurotransmitters probably do use some quantum effects because of their nature) Now I think consciousness happens at a higher abstraction level and is not necessarily dependant on lower-level implementation up to a point.
    - majewsky 8y ago
      > Neurotransmitters probably do use some quantum effects because of their nature What does that even mean? Ice "uses" quantum effects when melting, but that does not mean that we cannot accurately explain the behavior of melting ice without taking these quantum effects into account.
      - raverbashing 8y ago
        Correct, that's what I mean. Then, if we can't explain its behaviour without the usage of QM then I'd say it is essencial.
hliyan 8y ago
There is some thinking that the quantum effects at the neuron level makes the brain a non-deterministic computing device (i.e. its outputs are not solely governed by its inputs). This opens up the possibility that human brain, unlike computers, are driven by something more than just the sum total of its structure and inputs (without which, we could rightly be considered machines with no free will). Whether that "something" is just a collection of randomness, or something more, is unknown and currently there is no scientific basis to think it is something more.
- gpderetta 8y ago
  FWIW, most computers today have builtin non deterministic hardware rng. They do bot seem qualitatively different from computers lacking them.
  - hliyan 8y ago
    Yes, but those are explicitly invokable random functions, and not random fluctuations built into the entire functionality of the CPU.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      You can do that by overclocking everything and turning off error correction codes. This doesn’t seem like a powerful argument in favour of randomness or non-determination.
    - naasking 8y ago
      > Yes, but those are explicitly invokable random functions, and not random fluctuations built into the entire functionality of the CPU. There's no logical difference. If the CPU's have any correlation to its inputs, then it's equivalent to a deterministic function+random input.
    - bhouston 8y ago
      The brain is random all over because it depends on liquid chemical reactions and diffusion and concentrates, etc. And those do not have fixed time courses, just probability distributions of reaction times. The brain is also ultra parallel with massive noise in all of its signals. You do not need quantumness in the brain to introduce randomness, it is filled to the brim with randomness already.
siidooloo 8y ago
This seems like a god of the gaps kind of argument. As we learn more about biology and neuroscience people who believe consciousness and the mind exist outside of the brain will be forced to make increasingly specific claims. They will eventually have to explain the physical process that allows the mind to not be some reflection of the brain. Over time I expect the scope of “and something magic-like happens here” to be reduced.
bhouston 8y ago
It is highly likely that aspects of cells exploit quantum effects as they exploit tons of advanced and amazing molecular chemistry techniques already. Whether brains exploit quantum effects on a larger scale than just locally within cells is harder to know. It is possible for sure as we have evolved complex macro structures like eye balls as long as there were viable and useful intermediate stages. Thus to me it is theoretically possible that large scale quantum effects could be possible in the brain. One cool thing is that if this does in fact exist in the brain, there is likely a lot that we could learn from it. It would be stable at room temperature, robust under moderate vibrations, and made from non-exotic materials. Large scale quantum effects does not make the brain special in a mystical way, I just view them as an meaningful optimization over non-quantum consciousness. Given that we know that the results of quantum effects can be simulated on non-quantum computers, then quantum consciousness isn't unique to quantum capable devices, it is just more efficient on those devices than others. And given that biology always seems to surprise with its ingenuity, it seems likely that those brains who use more efficient methods of computation would have evolutionary advantages over those that do not. It would then follow that if quantum consciousness (AKA large scale quantum effects in the brain) existed, it would be widespread, and likely not restricted to just humans.
- saalweachter 8y ago
  Just because something is using "quantum effects" does not make it a "quantum computer". Regular old transistors use "quantum effects" left and right, but they're ultimately just classical computing devices.

Probably not. Do neurons use some quantum mechanism to do work in a way we might not have figured out yet. Maybe. (But not in a "magical" way)

mannykannot 8y ago
That is pretty much what Hameroff's preoccupation with microtubules claims. Whether it avoids your definition of "magical" is for you to decide.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Ah I didn't know about his argument. My definition of "magical" would be that neurons use some non-obvious/non-linear quantum effect that is required for mammalian(?) levels of brain function. (Neurotransmitters probably do use some quantum effects because of their nature) Now I think consciousness happens at a higher abstraction level and is not necessarily dependant on lower-level implementation up to a point.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    > Neurotransmitters probably do use some quantum effects because of their nature What does that even mean? Ice "uses" quantum effects when melting, but that does not mean that we cannot accurately explain the behavior of melting ice without taking these quantum effects into account.
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      Correct, that's what I mean. Then, if we can't explain its behaviour without the usage of QM then I'd say it is essencial.

hliyan 8y ago

There is some thinking that the quantum effects at the neuron level makes the brain a non-deterministic computing device (i.e. its outputs are not solely governed by its inputs). This opens up the possibility that human brain, unlike computers, are driven by something more than just the sum total of its structure and inputs (without which, we could rightly be considered machines with no free will). Whether that "something" is just a collection of randomness, or something more, is unknown and currently there is no scientific basis to think it is something more.

gpderetta 8y ago
FWIW, most computers today have builtin non deterministic hardware rng. They do bot seem qualitatively different from computers lacking them.
- hliyan 8y ago
  Yes, but those are explicitly invokable random functions, and not random fluctuations built into the entire functionality of the CPU.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    You can do that by overclocking everything and turning off error correction codes. This doesn’t seem like a powerful argument in favour of randomness or non-determination.
  - naasking 8y ago
    > Yes, but those are explicitly invokable random functions, and not random fluctuations built into the entire functionality of the CPU. There's no logical difference. If the CPU's have any correlation to its inputs, then it's equivalent to a deterministic function+random input.
  - bhouston 8y ago
    The brain is random all over because it depends on liquid chemical reactions and diffusion and concentrates, etc. And those do not have fixed time courses, just probability distributions of reaction times. The brain is also ultra parallel with massive noise in all of its signals. You do not need quantumness in the brain to introduce randomness, it is filled to the brim with randomness already.

siidooloo 8y ago

This seems like a god of the gaps kind of argument. As we learn more about biology and neuroscience people who believe consciousness and the mind exist outside of the brain will be forced to make increasingly specific claims. They will eventually have to explain the physical process that allows the mind to not be some reflection of the brain. Over time I expect the scope of “and something magic-like happens here” to be reduced.

bhouston 8y ago

It is highly likely that aspects of cells exploit quantum effects as they exploit tons of advanced and amazing molecular chemistry techniques already. Whether brains exploit quantum effects on a larger scale than just locally within cells is harder to know. It is possible for sure as we have evolved complex macro structures like eye balls as long as there were viable and useful intermediate stages. Thus to me it is theoretically possible that large scale quantum effects could be possible in the brain. One cool thing is that if this does in fact exist in the brain, there is likely a lot that we could learn from it. It would be stable at room temperature, robust under moderate vibrations, and made from non-exotic materials. Large scale quantum effects does not make the brain special in a mystical way, I just view them as an meaningful optimization over non-quantum consciousness. Given that we know that the results of quantum effects can be simulated on non-quantum computers, then quantum consciousness isn't unique to quantum capable devices, it is just more efficient on those devices than others. And given that biology always seems to surprise with its ingenuity, it seems likely that those brains who use more efficient methods of computation would have evolutionary advantages over those that do not. It would then follow that if quantum consciousness (AKA large scale quantum effects in the brain) existed, it would be widespread, and likely not restricted to just humans.

saalweachter 8y ago
Just because something is using "quantum effects" does not make it a "quantum computer". Regular old transistors use "quantum effects" left and right, but they're ultimately just classical computing devices.