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I think it matters whether someone is joking. Pogo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs and https://www.you

I think it matters whether someone is joking. Pogo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQuqeLBTetA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQuqeLBTetA etc) recently answered the question "Why is your Youtube name Fagottron?" https://www.youtube.com/user/Fagottron https://www.youtube.com/user/Fagottron In a moment of somewhat poor judgement, he said, essentially, "I've always hated gay people." But he was joking. The joke was that gay haters are often so over the top that they will sound completely ridiculous -- like, say, naming their Youtube channel Fagottron as a way to rub in the gay hate. The original video has been removed, but here's a part: https://youtu.be/-8y553PV0Gg?t=52 https://youtu.be/-8y553PV0Gg?t=52 The internet of course exploded at this, and soon the hornet's nest came out at him. The general mindset was apparently "I know you were joking, I don't care that you were joking, enjoy your ruined career." Now, to be clear, if you watch the original video, there's probably no way for you to tell it was a joke. He sounded dead serious. But he was in fact joking, and I think that's an important distinction. It's... getting unsettling unsettling that people can lose their careers over this sort of thing. Pogo will probably be ok, but it's strange that it was even an issue. Part of the problem is the culture of outrage. Outrage = clicks, and media knows this. That's why it's so easy to write articles like these: https://i.imgur.com/oVvsN3q.png https://i.imgur.com/oVvsN3q.png Another name for this type of joke is trolling, and that would be a fair description this case. But to mark someone for life -- to discount their hard work and to try to ruin them over something that was satire, is strange to me.

zajd 8y ago
Pogo wasn't joking though
- jacobush 8y ago
  Are you being sarcastic?
- sillysaurus3 8y ago
  If you have anything to back this up, that would be worth sharing. But I don't think it's fair to say that factually without some pretty strong evidence.
  - zajd 8y ago
    https://waxy.org/2017/04/pogos-politics/ https://waxy.org/2017/04/pogos-politics/ you'll note that this is from last year, before the current controversey > “I don’t think feminists ever do what they preach. I think it’s always an ulterior motive. I think it’s a divisive cult that doesn’t achieve much more than a flock of self-entitled narcissists at the end of the day. I’ve never liked them. I’ve always thought that driving a wedge between the genders seems like a funny way to achieve equality.” > “I think the left is bringing about the destruction of Western civilization, personally.” > “I don’t want to make massive generalization or anything, but I think female accountability is a myth. I think under the banner of feminism, females will never be held accountable for anything. You should not critique a woman unless you are prepared for the consequences.”
    - cpmouter 8y ago
      What does that have to do with hating homosexuals? I know of many people who don't like feminists but don't have a problem with homosexuals.
    - sillysaurus3 8y ago
      That's entirely unrelated though. Just because someone dislikes the left doesn't automatically make them more or less likely to dislike gay people. That's an unfortunate association with the republican right, which tends to be more religious than not.
      - zajd 8y ago
        If you think this sort of thing is entirely unrelated you haven't been paying much attention. Those kinds of "unfortunate associations" are why you don't pillory your own career by espousing reprehensible views "as a joke" (the idea that it was a joke was only brought up after the controversy)
        pliny 8y ago
        Is making jokes and enjoying the benefit of the doubt a privilege reserved for people with the correct political opinions?
chrisseaton 8y ago
I've no idea why anyone tries to communicate using satire or sarcasm today. It's absolutely begging to be misunderstood, and then it's impossible correct because yes that is literally what you wrote and it's there in black and white. It must be the least clear and most risky way to communicate possible.
- ghaff 8y ago
  It's really broader than that. A lot of comedy has always been about skirting close to the edge of appropriateness and good taste. (And maybe going over it a bit.) As I was discussing with someone in the wake of some of the recent outrage outpourings, the cliff that comedy skirts has become very steep and very public. The joke that bombed in a small nightclub and gets quietly excised from the routine is now all over YouTube and Twitter, perhaps completely out of context. Or a stupid dongle joke of the sort that I might have rolled my eyes at a coworker making and maybe told them to "give it a rest" years ago now gets people fired because of online outrage.
- matte_black 8y ago
  Satire and sarcasm are best used in the company of people who will understand it. It is not for use with the masses. When someone is sarcastic or uses satire on you, you should take it as a complement, as it means they believe you have the intellectual capacity to grasp the joke, enough to take the risk in telling it to you. When you respond with sarcasm or satire of your own, it confirms to them that you have found common ground, and that your satire/sarcasm can slowly lift into even higher levels of wit, almost trying to outdo each other. When someone doesn’t get my satirical jokes, I write them off as a simpleton and use only small, safe jokes with them, if at all. If you are going to make a sarcastic joke publicly, it is best to also make sure there is some sort of external approval in the form of laughing or upvotes to go along with it, otherwise it can easily be misinterpreted as your own serious opinion.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > When someone doesn’t get my satirical jokes, I write them off as a simpleton and use only small, safe jokes with them, if at all. Maybe they go away thinking you're the simpleton for saying something which isn't true or doesn't make any sense? It seems like this is a whole system of snideness designed to judge people and justify being condescending to them. I think it's just unpleasant.
keule 8y ago
It seems to me that people with dry sarcasm can not live that out in the media. Putting things out of context or blowing single events out of proportion has become too common. Very unsettling.
aaron695 8y ago
> In a moment of somewhat poor judgement, he said, essentially, "I've always hated gay people." But he was joking. I wouldn't say it was a joke, it was a form of humor. > The joke was that gay haters are often so over the top that they will sound completely ridiculous No this wasn't the humor as far as I can see. He's rubbing his nose in the fact many people no longer get humor in its many forms and is using a type of humor that's not commonly done these days. Even things like the Daily Show have to "Explain the joke" these days. FYI Australians (He's Australian) consider this an a lower class American trait, right or wrong it's a common meme in Australia, Americans audiences are so bad the joke has to be explained. (And notice I have to include the "Right or Wrong" when it wasn't needed, cause it's another form of infection were you can't report on things without saying your moral stance no matter how outrageous) > Now, to be clear, if you watch the original video, there's probably no way for you to tell it was a joke. This is simply not true, it's incredibly obvious. And no he wasn't trolling, a best he was thumbing his nose at the outrage machine that kicks into action without regard to why, for them it's all about forming their mob whenever possible, they use mobs for adrenaline rather than humor. Did he win a round for humor over the lynch mob, two mortal enemies. Hard to say.

zajd 8y ago

Pogo wasn't joking though

jacobush 8y ago
Are you being sarcastic?
sillysaurus3 8y ago
If you have anything to back this up, that would be worth sharing. But I don't think it's fair to say that factually without some pretty strong evidence.
- zajd 8y ago
  https://waxy.org/2017/04/pogos-politics/ https://waxy.org/2017/04/pogos-politics/ you'll note that this is from last year, before the current controversey > “I don’t think feminists ever do what they preach. I think it’s always an ulterior motive. I think it’s a divisive cult that doesn’t achieve much more than a flock of self-entitled narcissists at the end of the day. I’ve never liked them. I’ve always thought that driving a wedge between the genders seems like a funny way to achieve equality.” > “I think the left is bringing about the destruction of Western civilization, personally.” > “I don’t want to make massive generalization or anything, but I think female accountability is a myth. I think under the banner of feminism, females will never be held accountable for anything. You should not critique a woman unless you are prepared for the consequences.”
  - cpmouter 8y ago
    What does that have to do with hating homosexuals? I know of many people who don't like feminists but don't have a problem with homosexuals.
  - sillysaurus3 8y ago
    That's entirely unrelated though. Just because someone dislikes the left doesn't automatically make them more or less likely to dislike gay people. That's an unfortunate association with the republican right, which tends to be more religious than not.
    - zajd 8y ago
      If you think this sort of thing is entirely unrelated you haven't been paying much attention. Those kinds of "unfortunate associations" are why you don't pillory your own career by espousing reprehensible views "as a joke" (the idea that it was a joke was only brought up after the controversy)
      - pliny 8y ago
        Is making jokes and enjoying the benefit of the doubt a privilege reserved for people with the correct political opinions?

chrisseaton 8y ago

I've no idea why anyone tries to communicate using satire or sarcasm today. It's absolutely begging to be misunderstood, and then it's impossible correct because yes that is literally what you wrote and it's there in black and white. It must be the least clear and most risky way to communicate possible.

ghaff 8y ago
It's really broader than that. A lot of comedy has always been about skirting close to the edge of appropriateness and good taste. (And maybe going over it a bit.) As I was discussing with someone in the wake of some of the recent outrage outpourings, the cliff that comedy skirts has become very steep and very public. The joke that bombed in a small nightclub and gets quietly excised from the routine is now all over YouTube and Twitter, perhaps completely out of context. Or a stupid dongle joke of the sort that I might have rolled my eyes at a coworker making and maybe told them to "give it a rest" years ago now gets people fired because of online outrage.
matte_black 8y ago
Satire and sarcasm are best used in the company of people who will understand it. It is not for use with the masses. When someone is sarcastic or uses satire on you, you should take it as a complement, as it means they believe you have the intellectual capacity to grasp the joke, enough to take the risk in telling it to you. When you respond with sarcasm or satire of your own, it confirms to them that you have found common ground, and that your satire/sarcasm can slowly lift into even higher levels of wit, almost trying to outdo each other. When someone doesn’t get my satirical jokes, I write them off as a simpleton and use only small, safe jokes with them, if at all. If you are going to make a sarcastic joke publicly, it is best to also make sure there is some sort of external approval in the form of laughing or upvotes to go along with it, otherwise it can easily be misinterpreted as your own serious opinion.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > When someone doesn’t get my satirical jokes, I write them off as a simpleton and use only small, safe jokes with them, if at all. Maybe they go away thinking you're the simpleton for saying something which isn't true or doesn't make any sense? It seems like this is a whole system of snideness designed to judge people and justify being condescending to them. I think it's just unpleasant.

keule 8y ago

It seems to me that people with dry sarcasm can not live that out in the media. Putting things out of context or blowing single events out of proportion has become too common. Very unsettling.

aaron695 8y ago

> In a moment of somewhat poor judgement, he said, essentially, "I've always hated gay people." But he was joking. I wouldn't say it was a joke, it was a form of humor. > The joke was that gay haters are often so over the top that they will sound completely ridiculous No this wasn't the humor as far as I can see. He's rubbing his nose in the fact many people no longer get humor in its many forms and is using a type of humor that's not commonly done these days. Even things like the Daily Show have to "Explain the joke" these days. FYI Australians (He's Australian) consider this an a lower class American trait, right or wrong it's a common meme in Australia, Americans audiences are so bad the joke has to be explained. (And notice I have to include the "Right or Wrong" when it wasn't needed, cause it's another form of infection were you can't report on things without saying your moral stance no matter how outrageous) > Now, to be clear, if you watch the original video, there's probably no way for you to tell it was a joke. This is simply not true, it's incredibly obvious. And no he wasn't trolling, a best he was thumbing his nose at the outrage machine that kicks into action without regard to why, for them it's all about forming their mob whenever possible, they use mobs for adrenaline rather than humor. Did he win a round for humor over the lynch mob, two mortal enemies. Hard to say.