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I’m not so sure that a willingness to make your existence subordinate to a higher power is all that separable from doing good.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
You seem to be saying that atheists can't do good. If you want secular folk to be more appreciative of your religion, you should be a lot more careful about expressing such bigoted sentiments about us.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  I’m not religious, fwiw. What I said applies to both religious and non-religious people. I just think people who subordinate themselves to a higher power (or purpose) tend to be more concentrated among the religious.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    > What I said applies to both religious and non-religious people. My problem is that it applies to theists in a positive way and atheists in a negative way. You complain that hardcore atheists are too critical of the worst of religion, then you say something absurdly critical about atheists.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      I was mainly saying something about my intuition of how certain traits correlate with each other. I’m probably wrong, btw; I use HN as a thinking apparatus, so I tend to go out on a limb here and see what people push back with.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I didn't read it that way at all. My ex was not religious, but was a patriot and had a military career. There are lots of ways to devote oneself to some larger cause or purpose.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    My existence is not subordinate to a higher power. I read that as saying that I can't do good.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      FWIW, I should have said higher purpose. From what I have observed, most good people subordinate themselves to a higher purpose. That can be all kinds of things. Belief in doing the right thing, God, your children, etc.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > From what I have observed, most good people subordinate themselves to a higher purpose. So do many of the most evil people. Often, superficially at least, the same higher purpose as good people. God, certainly, ranks high on that list.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        Tying a higher purpose to doing good is meaningless if you're just saying that good people believe in doing the right thing. I believe in doing the right thing, but I wouldn't say my existence is subordinate to that. It also doesn't make sense as a reply to someone saying that "you can walk the straight and narrow path without the carrot of eternal salvation or the stick of eternal damnation."
dragonwriter 8y ago
> I’m not so sure that a willingness to make your existence subordinate to a higher power is all that separable from doing good. It's quite separable from doing good, as there are endless historical examples of people subordinating their existence to a higher power and doing virtually unmitigated evil as a direct consequence. OTOH, it may be the case that recognizing a very specific kind of higher purpose than one self is deeply linked to doing good, but to the extent that is true I don't think is all that strongly correlated with religion; I do think the right framing of religion is beneficial (and wrong framings harmful) to channeling that pre-existing inclination into good results, but that's a different issue.

daveFNbuck 8y ago

You seem to be saying that atheists can't do good. If you want secular folk to be more appreciative of your religion, you should be a lot more careful about expressing such bigoted sentiments about us.

toasterlovin 8y ago
I’m not religious, fwiw. What I said applies to both religious and non-religious people. I just think people who subordinate themselves to a higher power (or purpose) tend to be more concentrated among the religious.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  > What I said applies to both religious and non-religious people. My problem is that it applies to theists in a positive way and atheists in a negative way. You complain that hardcore atheists are too critical of the worst of religion, then you say something absurdly critical about atheists.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    I was mainly saying something about my intuition of how certain traits correlate with each other. I’m probably wrong, btw; I use HN as a thinking apparatus, so I tend to go out on a limb here and see what people push back with.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I didn't read it that way at all. My ex was not religious, but was a patriot and had a military career. There are lots of ways to devote oneself to some larger cause or purpose.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  My existence is not subordinate to a higher power. I read that as saying that I can't do good.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    FWIW, I should have said higher purpose. From what I have observed, most good people subordinate themselves to a higher purpose. That can be all kinds of things. Belief in doing the right thing, God, your children, etc.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > From what I have observed, most good people subordinate themselves to a higher purpose. So do many of the most evil people. Often, superficially at least, the same higher purpose as good people. God, certainly, ranks high on that list.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      Tying a higher purpose to doing good is meaningless if you're just saying that good people believe in doing the right thing. I believe in doing the right thing, but I wouldn't say my existence is subordinate to that. It also doesn't make sense as a reply to someone saying that "you can walk the straight and narrow path without the carrot of eternal salvation or the stick of eternal damnation."

dragonwriter 8y ago

> I’m not so sure that a willingness to make your existence subordinate to a higher power is all that separable from doing good. It's quite separable from doing good, as there are endless historical examples of people subordinating their existence to a higher power and doing virtually unmitigated evil as a direct consequence. OTOH, it may be the case that recognizing a very specific kind of higher purpose than one self is deeply linked to doing good, but to the extent that is true I don't think is all that strongly correlated with religion; I do think the right framing of religion is beneficial (and wrong framings harmful) to channeling that pre-existing inclination into good results, but that's a different issue.