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OK, so enduring (which includes constant/unwavering?) and untreatable. I haven't been able to find how many sufferers of depression that includes. If it's clos

by mmt 8y ago

OK, so enduring (which includes constant/unwavering?) and untreatable. I haven't been able to find how many sufferers of depression that includes. If it's close to or actually zero, then maybe it's a strawman.

rectang 8y ago
It's not zero. The numbers are pretty big: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment-resistant_depression#Prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment-resistant_depression... Treatment-resistance is relatively common in cases of Major Depressive Disorder. Rates of total remission following antidepressant treatment are only 50.4%. In cases of depression treated by a primary-care physician, 32% of patients partially responded to treatment and 45% did not respond at all. I'm not advocating withholding help from any of them. It's more of a philosophical quandary. If you believe (as I do) that the universe is indifferent to human suffering, that life has no greater purpose beyond this one life, and that minimizing human suffering is worthwhile; then the idea of forcing someone to live a life of pain bothers me. And at the same time, the idea of a suicide increasing the suffering of those left behind also bothers me. It's probably impossible to avoid this degenerating into a religious debate, but those are my thoughts.
- mmt 8y ago
  > It's not zero. The numbers are pretty big Woah.. treatment resistance is nowhere near the same as being untreatable. It's an alarmingly huge leap to make, especially since the definition kicks in after only two anti-depressants have failed. > minimizing human suffering is worthwhile; I agree.. > then the idea of forcing someone to live a life of pain bothers me But I still take issue with the seeming over-simplicity of this statement, as well as your original comment, because it (dangerously, in my opinion) brings the notion of euthanasia/suicide [1] into the dicussion merely because of some pain. If someone's life is going to be, essentially, nothing but pain, then, OK, I agree it's inhumane to force that someone to live, but that just hasn't been established. Meanwhile, philisophically, I'm uncomfortable with not pursuing all the other avenues of pain relief before resorting to death. [1] Assisted, unassisted, whatever.. I'm not categorically opposed, by any means.
  - rectang 8y ago
    > nothing but pain That's an impossible threshold, so it's meaningless and you haven't conceded anything. This is like the abortion debate. There's no common ground.
    - mmt 8y ago
      That's both an uncharitable reading and out of context. Like the original commenter, I'm feeling free to take some liberties with my language. However, to clarify, the threshold I was suggesting was of severe, unrelenting pain, as I alluded to in my previous comment. That's hardly impossible. > like the abortion debate This reference unnecessarily draw contentiousness into the discussion, contrary to the guidelines. > no common ground Demonstrably not the case, since I agree with rectang regarding suffering in general, and, I believe, regarding the right to die with dignity in the face of unavoidable suffering. I merely disagree with the nuance (or lack thereof) as applied to the situation of depression.
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- imcoconut 8y ago
  Have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWkUzkfJ4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWkUzkfJ4M
  - rectang 8y ago
    Ironically, had that woman lived in a country which forces people to live, the result would have been, as she put it, "a grusome and lonely death".
    - mmt 8y ago
      Fortunately, that speculation has little merit, not just because it's a sample size of 1 (aka anecdata) but, more importantly, because it was made by the depression sufferer herself. Also, characterizing a country that doesn't support physician-assisted suicide as one which forces people to live strikes me as a non-sequitur. Merely decriminalizing suicide is enough to remove any "force". This is why I, again, object to your glossing over the details when speaking on this issue. The details matter, especially if you're not just trying to gratuitously stir up emotion or controversy.

by mmt 8y ago

rectang 8y ago

It's not zero. The numbers are pretty big: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment-resistant_depression#Prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment-resistant_depression... Treatment-resistance is relatively common in cases of Major Depressive Disorder. Rates of total remission following antidepressant treatment are only 50.4%. In cases of depression treated by a primary-care physician, 32% of patients partially responded to treatment and 45% did not respond at all. I'm not advocating withholding help from any of them. It's more of a philosophical quandary. If you believe (as I do) that the universe is indifferent to human suffering, that life has no greater purpose beyond this one life, and that minimizing human suffering is worthwhile; then the idea of forcing someone to live a life of pain bothers me. And at the same time, the idea of a suicide increasing the suffering of those left behind also bothers me. It's probably impossible to avoid this degenerating into a religious debate, but those are my thoughts.

mmt 8y ago
> It's not zero. The numbers are pretty big Woah.. treatment resistance is nowhere near the same as being untreatable. It's an alarmingly huge leap to make, especially since the definition kicks in after only two anti-depressants have failed. > minimizing human suffering is worthwhile; I agree.. > then the idea of forcing someone to live a life of pain bothers me But I still take issue with the seeming over-simplicity of this statement, as well as your original comment, because it (dangerously, in my opinion) brings the notion of euthanasia/suicide [1] into the dicussion merely because of some pain. If someone's life is going to be, essentially, nothing but pain, then, OK, I agree it's inhumane to force that someone to live, but that just hasn't been established. Meanwhile, philisophically, I'm uncomfortable with not pursuing all the other avenues of pain relief before resorting to death. [1] Assisted, unassisted, whatever.. I'm not categorically opposed, by any means.
- rectang 8y ago
  > nothing but pain That's an impossible threshold, so it's meaningless and you haven't conceded anything. This is like the abortion debate. There's no common ground.
  - mmt 8y ago
    That's both an uncharitable reading and out of context. Like the original commenter, I'm feeling free to take some liberties with my language. However, to clarify, the threshold I was suggesting was of severe, unrelenting pain, as I alluded to in my previous comment. That's hardly impossible. > like the abortion debate This reference unnecessarily draw contentiousness into the discussion, contrary to the guidelines. > no common ground Demonstrably not the case, since I agree with rectang regarding suffering in general, and, I believe, regarding the right to die with dignity in the face of unavoidable suffering. I merely disagree with the nuance (or lack thereof) as applied to the situation of depression.
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    - deleted 8y ago
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imcoconut 8y ago
Have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWkUzkfJ4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWkUzkfJ4M
- rectang 8y ago
  Ironically, had that woman lived in a country which forces people to live, the result would have been, as she put it, "a grusome and lonely death".
  - mmt 8y ago
    Fortunately, that speculation has little merit, not just because it's a sample size of 1 (aka anecdata) but, more importantly, because it was made by the depression sufferer herself. Also, characterizing a country that doesn't support physician-assisted suicide as one which forces people to live strikes me as a non-sequitur. Merely decriminalizing suicide is enough to remove any "force". This is why I, again, object to your glossing over the details when speaking on this issue. The details matter, especially if you're not just trying to gratuitously stir up emotion or controversy.