4 ms·

Sadly yes. I honestly don't have any numbers to backup my feelings, but I know that a lot of people truly fear the police, and possibly for good reasons. A wh

Sadly yes. I honestly don't have any numbers to backup my feelings, but I know that a lot of people truly fear the police, and possibly for good reasons. A while ago we had to call the police on a loved one that we were fearing was suicidal. By the end of the whole night the only thing that happened was the loved one was stuck with a rather large hospital bill as they were admitted (then discharged the next day), and they were cited for having the registration of their car be several months past due BY the cops that were sent to their house. There are also countless stories online of people (often minorities) calling police or having the police called for them, but they end up getting injured or even killed in the process. There are also reports of cops entering the house of someone that was reported as suicidal with their guns drawn... Not to mention that with drug laws in the US, someone with contraband or illegal drugs in their house or on their person might be risking everything just interacting with police. I don't really want to get into the debate about how police should act, or a debate about guns or laws or racism or what is warranted or not or drug laws or whatever else right now, but I do want to point out that for some people, the police might be more of a "threat" than help. And even if statistically the police aren't that likely to hurt someone, the frequency that it's happening and the growing resentment on both "sides" can make it so that many people will want to attempt other solutions before involving police.

kyleperik 8y ago
Honestly I wasn't trying to start any sort of debate either, I just didn't know that was really something people have to be aware of. That's very sad. I feel bad not knowing that's the way things are now.
- Klathmon 8y ago
  It's absolutely not like that everywhere, or for everyone, but for many it's a real problem, and it's not one that has an easy solution. And I'm kind of upset that your comment is getting downvoted so much, as it's a very valid question. Growing up I was taught to trust the police, that if something was wrong to go to them and they will help, that they were safe and would protect me. But at this point in my life I'm honestly not sure if I would teach the same to my children. And that thought terrifies me because I honestly can't think of a scenario where these kinds of feelings end well for society in general.
  - drak0n1c 8y ago
    Statistics show that such a danger is very tiny compared to the benefit of seeking the aid of law enforcement for every race, even if you don't filter out cases where the officer was purposefully antagonized. Social media and 24/7 news is incentivized to publicize negative outliers. Similar to fear around radical terrorism - there is a pattern, but statistically it's not an issue worth altering your lifestyle around. The discussion is largely rooted in anecdata and can be interpreted multiple ways due to the relatively low number of lethal events: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0d154ec29d91 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a...
    - Klathmon 8y ago
      Which is only one part of my comment, and it's the one that (in my experience) people worry about the least (but it's always the one that people like to talk about the most). What about the problem of police causing massive medical bills? What about the issue of fearing police involvement because they may charge you with a petty crime that can cause you significant issues? Or the worry that you could be arrested and jailed for having small amounts of marijuana which is legal just a few states over during an interaction with police? What about the worry of putting an office with their gun drawn in front of a suicidal person? And even if none of that actually happens ever in "real life", the fear of it happening can be just as bad. It causes resentment, it causes kids to grow up fearing the police, it causes police to fear those who hate them, and instinctively act less friendly and helpful to them. It's a problem that from where I'm standing looks like it can only get worse and worse. The police are no longer thought of as on "your side", and telling people that "statistically they aren't that likely to kill you" isn't going to solve anything.
      - ams6110 8y ago
        I know a few cops, and they tell me that they don't worry about small amounts of weed (even though it's not legal here) because the local prosecutor doesn't want to bother with those cases. He has bigger fish to fry. It's not that way everywhere, but many cops are going to look at the big picture and try to do what's "right" rather than be anal about arresting people for minor transgressions.
staunch 8y ago
> I honestly don't have any numbers to backup my feelings... Then you don't know what's true and you should want to find out. Otherwise you risk spreading very harmful anti-intellectual and anti-science misinformation. > And even if statistically the police aren't that likely to hurt someone, the frequency that it's happening and the growing resentment on both "sides" can make it so that many people will want to attempt other solutions before involving police. Consider that you might be contributing to this very problem. You're spreading a meme here that you don't even seem to believe is backed by data because of your feelings on the topic. Now multiply this attitude by millions of people and you've got an entirely self-inflicted societal problem. Humans developed scientific tools precisely to overcome our biases and emotions. Leaving them behind in the name of feelings is the path towards chaos.
- Klathmon 8y ago
  But the feelings are just a symptom, they aren't the problem. You can throw out stats that say it's not likely, but that won't cause me to really worry any less when I need to decide if I call the police on a loved one, or if I call the neighbor. I honestly wish I didn't bring up the "hurt or killed" aspect of this, as that is always the thing that ends up devolving into internet fights. Worries of ending up with large medical bills from police interaction, or being charged with a small crime and losing your job, friends, house, etc... are much more worrisome in my opinion. Regardless of how based in reality these feelings are, the police need to handle it. The solution isn't pulling out stats and saying "this isn't really an issue", because it clearly doesn't work. Health insurance reform is so badly needed in this country, and the police need to work with the communities, they need to build trust, they need to show the community that they aren't dangerous, they need to show that they won't jump at any opportunity to charge someone with a crime. I fully understand that asking police to go more lenient on arrests and charges when on a wellness call will end up with some possibly very bad people "getting away with it", and that asking police to put their guns down and even possibly disarm themselves in some situations will lead to officers getting injured or killed. But the arms race of everyone distrusting everyone else is going to end up with a much larger amount of harm in the long run.
ams6110 8y ago
It's dependent upon which officer is dispatched. Some, perhaps many, especially those who are more experienced and intelligent, and have been trained in mental health crisis intervention, will be helpful. Others who are inexperienced or not trained will just want to handcuff the person and throw them in an ambulance by any means necessary. Most cops will want to help a suicidal person. The ones who handle it badly make the headlines and the viral internet stories. The other problem is that "the system" is not really set up to help people who are suicidal to the point that the police are called. They will be sent to the psych ward at the nearest public hospital for evaluation, where they will be seen by overworked staff who know nothing about the person's history. Especially if they have no means to pay, they will be discharged as soon as possible and there will be little followup.

kyleperik 8y ago

Honestly I wasn't trying to start any sort of debate either, I just didn't know that was really something people have to be aware of. That's very sad. I feel bad not knowing that's the way things are now.

Klathmon 8y ago
It's absolutely not like that everywhere, or for everyone, but for many it's a real problem, and it's not one that has an easy solution. And I'm kind of upset that your comment is getting downvoted so much, as it's a very valid question. Growing up I was taught to trust the police, that if something was wrong to go to them and they will help, that they were safe and would protect me. But at this point in my life I'm honestly not sure if I would teach the same to my children. And that thought terrifies me because I honestly can't think of a scenario where these kinds of feelings end well for society in general.
- drak0n1c 8y ago
  Statistics show that such a danger is very tiny compared to the benefit of seeking the aid of law enforcement for every race, even if you don't filter out cases where the officer was purposefully antagonized. Social media and 24/7 news is incentivized to publicize negative outliers. Similar to fear around radical terrorism - there is a pattern, but statistically it's not an issue worth altering your lifestyle around. The discussion is largely rooted in anecdata and can be interpreted multiple ways due to the relatively low number of lethal events: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0d154ec29d91 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a...
  - Klathmon 8y ago
    Which is only one part of my comment, and it's the one that (in my experience) people worry about the least (but it's always the one that people like to talk about the most). What about the problem of police causing massive medical bills? What about the issue of fearing police involvement because they may charge you with a petty crime that can cause you significant issues? Or the worry that you could be arrested and jailed for having small amounts of marijuana which is legal just a few states over during an interaction with police? What about the worry of putting an office with their gun drawn in front of a suicidal person? And even if none of that actually happens ever in "real life", the fear of it happening can be just as bad. It causes resentment, it causes kids to grow up fearing the police, it causes police to fear those who hate them, and instinctively act less friendly and helpful to them. It's a problem that from where I'm standing looks like it can only get worse and worse. The police are no longer thought of as on "your side", and telling people that "statistically they aren't that likely to kill you" isn't going to solve anything.
    - ams6110 8y ago
      I know a few cops, and they tell me that they don't worry about small amounts of weed (even though it's not legal here) because the local prosecutor doesn't want to bother with those cases. He has bigger fish to fry. It's not that way everywhere, but many cops are going to look at the big picture and try to do what's "right" rather than be anal about arresting people for minor transgressions.

staunch 8y ago

> I honestly don't have any numbers to backup my feelings... Then you don't know what's true and you should want to find out. Otherwise you risk spreading very harmful anti-intellectual and anti-science misinformation. > And even if statistically the police aren't that likely to hurt someone, the frequency that it's happening and the growing resentment on both "sides" can make it so that many people will want to attempt other solutions before involving police. Consider that you might be contributing to this very problem. You're spreading a meme here that you don't even seem to believe is backed by data because of your feelings on the topic. Now multiply this attitude by millions of people and you've got an entirely self-inflicted societal problem. Humans developed scientific tools precisely to overcome our biases and emotions. Leaving them behind in the name of feelings is the path towards chaos.

Klathmon 8y ago
But the feelings are just a symptom, they aren't the problem. You can throw out stats that say it's not likely, but that won't cause me to really worry any less when I need to decide if I call the police on a loved one, or if I call the neighbor. I honestly wish I didn't bring up the "hurt or killed" aspect of this, as that is always the thing that ends up devolving into internet fights. Worries of ending up with large medical bills from police interaction, or being charged with a small crime and losing your job, friends, house, etc... are much more worrisome in my opinion. Regardless of how based in reality these feelings are, the police need to handle it. The solution isn't pulling out stats and saying "this isn't really an issue", because it clearly doesn't work. Health insurance reform is so badly needed in this country, and the police need to work with the communities, they need to build trust, they need to show the community that they aren't dangerous, they need to show that they won't jump at any opportunity to charge someone with a crime. I fully understand that asking police to go more lenient on arrests and charges when on a wellness call will end up with some possibly very bad people "getting away with it", and that asking police to put their guns down and even possibly disarm themselves in some situations will lead to officers getting injured or killed. But the arms race of everyone distrusting everyone else is going to end up with a much larger amount of harm in the long run.

ams6110 8y ago

It's dependent upon which officer is dispatched. Some, perhaps many, especially those who are more experienced and intelligent, and have been trained in mental health crisis intervention, will be helpful. Others who are inexperienced or not trained will just want to handcuff the person and throw them in an ambulance by any means necessary. Most cops will want to help a suicidal person. The ones who handle it badly make the headlines and the viral internet stories. The other problem is that "the system" is not really set up to help people who are suicidal to the point that the police are called. They will be sent to the psych ward at the nearest public hospital for evaluation, where they will be seen by overworked staff who know nothing about the person's history. Especially if they have no means to pay, they will be discharged as soon as possible and there will be little followup.