4 ms·

> We haven't yet learned the parallel with roads that more technologies help only temporarily, eventually leading people to use them and create more pollution.

by cirgue 8y ago

> We haven't yet learned the parallel with roads that more technologies help only temporarily, eventually leading people to use them and create more pollution. This is a false equivalency. Traffic is very much the limiting factor in the use of roads. Pollution is absolutely not the limiting factor in the use of technology. The volume of pollution produced does not expand to some magical limit in response to changes in process in the same way that traffic expands to fill roadways in response to road expansion.

maxsilver 8y ago
> Pollution is absolutely not the limiting factor in the use of technology. The volume of pollution produced does not expand to some magical limit in response to changes in process in the same way that traffic expands to fill roadways in response to road expansion. Yep, and this is a false equivalency too. Traffic does not "expand to fill roadways" in that way, we are just so under-provisioned on transit infrastructure that it gives the artificial appearance of this. By this flawed logic, we should never build Hospitals (because it would 'make more' sick people, they would 'expand to fill hospitals'). Or we should never build schools (because that would 'make more' uneducated people). This isn't new, grossly misunderstanding induced demand is par for the course in that field. But it's worth mentioning every time this comes up.
- cirgue 8y ago
  In already-populated areas, expansion of transit capacity increases local economic activity and thefore throughput. This is an observable phenomenon. Municipalities even occasionally plan for it. Property investors certainly do.
- mapleoin 8y ago
  Yes, traffic does expand to fill roadways if all you do is build roadways and population and car-ownership increases. One solution to traffic congestion is, yes to provision more transit infrastructure, but that usually means subways and cycling paths in a city, a better train system in the countryside. Another solution is to redesign the city so that people don't need to move as much. Build vertically, encourage varied local businesses where people live, rather than in a mall outside town and relocate things that you don't need in a city centre (i.e. industry).
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Satisfying more people’s desire for transportation is a good thing. Roads can be an inefficient way to do that, but it’s baffling how people talk about “extra” traffic like there’s no public value in enabling it.
    - yayana 8y ago
      The post you replied to explained why it shouldn't be baffling. Individual agents all optimize to the changes in factors offered by new roads leading to a non optimal society of people commuting hours to get to jobs and big box stores from "less expensive" housing before calculating commute costs and externalities.

by cirgue 8y ago

maxsilver 8y ago

> Pollution is absolutely not the limiting factor in the use of technology. The volume of pollution produced does not expand to some magical limit in response to changes in process in the same way that traffic expands to fill roadways in response to road expansion. Yep, and this is a false equivalency too. Traffic does not "expand to fill roadways" in that way, we are just so under-provisioned on transit infrastructure that it gives the artificial appearance of this. By this flawed logic, we should never build Hospitals (because it would 'make more' sick people, they would 'expand to fill hospitals'). Or we should never build schools (because that would 'make more' uneducated people). This isn't new, grossly misunderstanding induced demand is par for the course in that field. But it's worth mentioning every time this comes up.

cirgue 8y ago
In already-populated areas, expansion of transit capacity increases local economic activity and thefore throughput. This is an observable phenomenon. Municipalities even occasionally plan for it. Property investors certainly do.
mapleoin 8y ago
Yes, traffic does expand to fill roadways if all you do is build roadways and population and car-ownership increases. One solution to traffic congestion is, yes to provision more transit infrastructure, but that usually means subways and cycling paths in a city, a better train system in the countryside. Another solution is to redesign the city so that people don't need to move as much. Build vertically, encourage varied local businesses where people live, rather than in a mall outside town and relocate things that you don't need in a city centre (i.e. industry).
- closeparen 8y ago
  Satisfying more people’s desire for transportation is a good thing. Roads can be an inefficient way to do that, but it’s baffling how people talk about “extra” traffic like there’s no public value in enabling it.
  - yayana 8y ago
    The post you replied to explained why it shouldn't be baffling. Individual agents all optimize to the changes in factors offered by new roads leading to a non optimal society of people commuting hours to get to jobs and big box stores from "less expensive" housing before calculating commute costs and externalities.