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> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend

> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before making your real point", but that doesn't mean that everyone on HN is a 'smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck'.

ralfn 8y ago
When somebody speaks their mind, everybody around them knows where they stand. I doubt there is difference between about how often people resent other people around the world. But I do consider it more humane if resentment isn't hidden under the surface. It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think.
- mannykannot 8y ago
  One circumstance where insults might be justified is where one party has ignored valid objections to his position. I mention this here because kristianic made the valid point that you have set up a false dichotomy, and you replied with a statement that keeps it going. Is the habit of not paying attention to the actual issues also part of your superior Northern European culture, and, in fact, is it perhaps a reason why insults are apparently such an important part of it?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mannykannot 8y ago
    I see someone chose to down-vote without commenting - presumably not one of those self-described straight-talking Northern Europeans?
- richmarr 8y ago
  > It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think. I can kinda see where you're going with this, ie. the idea that knowing what someone is thinking means you can trust them... but I disagree. To my mind verbal abuse doesn't mean they're speaking their mind, it means they've lost control. Based on these blow-ups I'd certainly question trusting Torvalds in any high stakes situation that required tact under pressure... which I would expect to happen frequently when running a country.
  - josephg 8y ago
    > I'd certainly question trusting Torvalds in any high stakes situation that required tact under pressure... Huh? When are kernel developers in high stakes situations that require tact? He doesn't host peace talks for a living. He manages Linux. He needs to be trusted for high stakes situations requiring technical clarity and technical decision making. And between our phones, our internet services and our banking infrastructure, basically everybody in modern society depends on the linux kernel working correctly. > To my mind verbal abuse doesn't mean they're speaking their mind, it means they've lost control. What? I just don't see it that way at all. If he'd lost control the criticism would be less technically grounded, and he wouldn't have merged the patch anyway. To me, Torvald's temper clearly expresses the value of "make the kernel good, don't make it be bad". Blowing up like this is an expensive social signal - it shows that to him the kernel being good is so important that he's willing to risk losing face and support to do so. I agree with other commenters that there are probably better ways he could get his point across; but how he expresses himself is completely authentic and aligned with his value of technical competence. And that buys a lot of trust in my eyes. And I don't think its just me. Trump does the same thing, and I suspect the "I can trust him because he gets angry" vibe helped him get elected. (For better or worse.)
    - richmarr 8y ago
      > Huh? When are kernel developers in high stakes situations that require tact? Parent commenter made a comparison between Torvalds and politicians. I was exploring that comparison. > If he'd lost control the criticism would be less technically grounded, and he wouldn't have merged the patch anyway. Losing control in one way doesn't mean losing control in all ways. Saying someone has "lost control" doesn't automatically mean that they've shat themselves, for example.
cbr 8y ago
> Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines Keep in mind that you're much more likely to see it when he explodes at someone, because that's more entertaining to read. Most of what he writes in the ordinary work of building a kernel is unobjectionable.
cpmouter 8y ago
You'd be surprised to see how many comments are removed from HN by the mods each day. What you see here is not what HN users actually are.
- brazzledazzle 8y ago
  I have dead comments turned on and it’s not too bad. Unless they have a super-delete power the ratio isn’t bad at all.
- kristianc 8y ago
  I have showdead on, it's really not that bad.
erric 8y ago
Having lived in Europe for two years now, that’s a very common perception of US Americans
vyodaiken 8y ago
He didn't call anyone an asshole. His insults were reserved for the arguments and the standard itself.

ralfn 8y ago

When somebody speaks their mind, everybody around them knows where they stand. I doubt there is difference between about how often people resent other people around the world. But I do consider it more humane if resentment isn't hidden under the surface. It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think.

mannykannot 8y ago
One circumstance where insults might be justified is where one party has ignored valid objections to his position. I mention this here because kristianic made the valid point that you have set up a false dichotomy, and you replied with a statement that keeps it going. Is the habit of not paying attention to the actual issues also part of your superior Northern European culture, and, in fact, is it perhaps a reason why insults are apparently such an important part of it?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mannykannot 8y ago
  I see someone chose to down-vote without commenting - presumably not one of those self-described straight-talking Northern Europeans?
richmarr 8y ago
> It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think. I can kinda see where you're going with this, ie. the idea that knowing what someone is thinking means you can trust them... but I disagree. To my mind verbal abuse doesn't mean they're speaking their mind, it means they've lost control. Based on these blow-ups I'd certainly question trusting Torvalds in any high stakes situation that required tact under pressure... which I would expect to happen frequently when running a country.
- josephg 8y ago
  > I'd certainly question trusting Torvalds in any high stakes situation that required tact under pressure... Huh? When are kernel developers in high stakes situations that require tact? He doesn't host peace talks for a living. He manages Linux. He needs to be trusted for high stakes situations requiring technical clarity and technical decision making. And between our phones, our internet services and our banking infrastructure, basically everybody in modern society depends on the linux kernel working correctly. > To my mind verbal abuse doesn't mean they're speaking their mind, it means they've lost control. What? I just don't see it that way at all. If he'd lost control the criticism would be less technically grounded, and he wouldn't have merged the patch anyway. To me, Torvald's temper clearly expresses the value of "make the kernel good, don't make it be bad". Blowing up like this is an expensive social signal - it shows that to him the kernel being good is so important that he's willing to risk losing face and support to do so. I agree with other commenters that there are probably better ways he could get his point across; but how he expresses himself is completely authentic and aligned with his value of technical competence. And that buys a lot of trust in my eyes. And I don't think its just me. Trump does the same thing, and I suspect the "I can trust him because he gets angry" vibe helped him get elected. (For better or worse.)
  - richmarr 8y ago
    > Huh? When are kernel developers in high stakes situations that require tact? Parent commenter made a comparison between Torvalds and politicians. I was exploring that comparison. > If he'd lost control the criticism would be less technically grounded, and he wouldn't have merged the patch anyway. Losing control in one way doesn't mean losing control in all ways. Saying someone has "lost control" doesn't automatically mean that they've shat themselves, for example.

cbr 8y ago

> Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines Keep in mind that you're much more likely to see it when he explodes at someone, because that's more entertaining to read. Most of what he writes in the ordinary work of building a kernel is unobjectionable.

cpmouter 8y ago

You'd be surprised to see how many comments are removed from HN by the mods each day. What you see here is not what HN users actually are.

brazzledazzle 8y ago
I have dead comments turned on and it’s not too bad. Unless they have a super-delete power the ratio isn’t bad at all.
kristianc 8y ago
I have showdead on, it's really not that bad.

erric 8y ago

Having lived in Europe for two years now, that’s a very common perception of US Americans

vyodaiken 8y ago

He didn't call anyone an asshole. His insults were reserved for the arguments and the standard itself.