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My wife works in mental health, dealing with people at the very lowest ebb. You'd think the therapists' internal meetings would be full of carefully worded and
by zwischenzug 8y ago
My wife works in mental health, dealing with people at the very lowest ebb. You'd think the therapists' internal meetings would be full of carefully worded and graded polite discussion, but just yesterday she told me about a meeting where the lead therapist said to one particular member of the group, 'If you don't do X right, we're fucked. You are fucking us up!'
I don't know if that's good or not, but it's not just in software that harsh words are used. And their stridency makes clear that this is an exceptionally significant point. I imagine that Linus's many more blandly worded emails don't result in this level of attention, so you wouldn't even be aware of his points there.
- richmarr 8y agoPresumably your wife is dealing with complex issues where there are real conflicts that require real words, unlike this situation. This is a non-conflict that Torvalds turned into one. In this case, Torvalds is swearing at someone who agrees with him (see Andy Shevchenko's response) because he hasn't bothered to seek clarification before calling it "pure and utter garbage".
- zwischenzug 8y agoI think people's ideas of what's a real conflict can vary. I don't know what Linus's motivation was, probably you know better than me. Is it possible he's trying to engender a culture where Andy pushes back harder on these rationales, rather than just being polite? Quoting Andy: Yeah, there were few reasons why I decide to make that patch (OK, it seems I staked on not the best reason).
- richmarr 8y agoIf Torvalds is trying to engender a culture by being the only one swearing then I'd be very curious where he learned that technique and how he was measuring its success over the many years he's exhibited that behaviour. Occam's Razor suggests that the more likely cause is that he's just an angry man who can't (or doesn't want to) moderate his behaviour. I don't want to assume too much about your wife's job or personality, but I'd also assume she would swear in a way that was reciprocal with those under therapy, based on a communication style they had established together... as opposed to her swearing at them while they were being perfectly polite.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zwischenzug 8y agoCan the maintenance of the Linux kernel be considered a success?
- richmarr 8y agoYour implication, that this aspect of Torvalds' interpersonal style is vindicated by Linux' success, is a classic Halo effect. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
- zwischenzug 8y agoI'm answering your question: maybe that's how he measures its success.
- richmarr 8y agoSo your suggestion here is that Torvalds has some monthly 'Linux success' metrics and varies the amount and style of swearing based on those. It'd certainly make a good sitcom.
- zwischenzug 8y agoI was explicitly not talking about the therapy, but the management of the therapy. That's a key distinction here.
- richmarr 8y agoIn what way? Sorry, not sure what point you're making here.
- mosselman 8y agoI am not against swearing and I do it as well. I find swearing at people who contribute to code off putting though.
- sgift 8y agoI don't see him swearing at people. I see him swearing at the contribution - at least in this example. There are many instances of him swearing at people and I think he does himself and Linux in general a disservice, but that one? I fail to see the problem.
- jacobush 8y agoStill, in your quote the emphasis was on the deed, not the person. "You are doing this wrong" <-- the deed "we're fucked" <-- feared consequence "You are fucking us up!" <-- your actions are harming the group. Not "you are a fuck" and no shunning from the group. I don't care for the tone, and all the dark patterns could be there too in the meeting, but your single quote on its own is not evidence of dysfunction.