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No, it is not the crash that makes the evil. It is how they handle it. And how they put blatantly misleading marketing out there, along with poorly researched f

No, it is not the crash that makes the evil. It is how they handle it. And how they put blatantly misleading marketing out there, along with poorly researched features that may or may not have lead to overconfidence from the drivers along with half baked tech, that resulted in crashes such as these.

megablast 8y ago
You just ignored every one of my points.
JoshCole 8y ago
There haven't even been five deaths yet in the entire history of Tesla autopilot car accidents, but there are more than three thousand deaths a day due to car accidents. Tesla's safety record actually is such that if scaled up, their would be a massive drop in the number of deaths per day. Their marketing reflects this. So does their communication on the topic. I know it can sound offensive when they say that a driver died without his hands on the wheel in the six seconds leading up to the crash, but their communication is reflective of a desire to preserve life. So I wouldn't call it evil, let alone call it blatantly evil. Stepping back further, away from this accident, Tesla is also a leading player in moving away from destroying our planet. By that I mean they are pushing renewable energy. Again, not something I would call evil, let alone blatantly evil.
- blub 8y ago
  "Tesla's safety record" is misleading: * every update to the software makes the record irrelevant, because one is no longer driving the same car which set the previous record. Lane centering for instance was introduced in an OTA update and it likely contributed to this accident. * most of the safe miles driven by Teslas are not with autopilot on. The NTSB explicitly said they did not test autopilot. * finally, some HN users did the math and it turns out that humans have overall a better safety record than autopilot Teslas. To me it looks like Tesla's communication is only reflective of covering their asses. From blaming that journalist to the latest accident. Note: I work for a Tesla competitor.
  - tigershark 8y ago
    Your first point is absolutely misleading. You can apply the same logic to the other cars saying that they are all different because of the different tyres, the different conditions of the tyres, of the brakes, the different degree of care and so on. You can’t just say that they are not the same cars because of the different variables.
    - etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
      I think OTA driving software updates are a bigger variable than tires. I think you would too if you think about it more.
  - JoshCole 8y ago
    I agree that there are aspects of the Tesla safety record which have caveats, but even when I take those caveats into account, I still come out thinking of the Tesla as being relatively safe. The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update. Eventually for example, that same update feature is expected to bring the car to the point of being superhuman in its ability to drive safely. The inability to rely on the autopilot means that I'm still responsible for my own safety, so the autopilot safety isn't as important as the car's safety in general. I disagree that their communication is only reflective of them covering their ass. I feel their is the expectation that self-driving is going to prevent more deaths than it causes. Especially as the technology improves, but even to an extent now if only through the virtue of it not being a system people should be using without being ready to intervene. Don't get me wrong here, you raise good points. I just don't think it's a case of blatant evil. Also, if you have the link to the math, I'd love to read it.
    - buvanshak 8y ago
      >The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update... You don't work in software, right?
      - 8y ago
- buvanshak 8y ago
  >Tesla's safety record actually is such that if scaled up, their would be a massive drop in the number of deaths per day... There is not enough data to do this "scaling up". So doing so would be incredibly misleading (But doesn't stop tesla's PR from doing the same). >Tesla is also a leading player in moving away from destroying our planet. The actions of this company and the persons behind this somehow does not feel compatible with such a goal. I am sorry. I am just not buying it. It is more probable that this "saving the planet" narrative is something that is meant to differentiate from the competition and to attract investors. Do you think Elon Musk could have created a company that builds ICE cars and emerged as a major player? It is "save the planet" for tesla and "save humanity by going to mars" for spacex.. I mean, is this so hard to see?
  - JoshCole 8y ago
    > There is not enough data to do this "scaling up". So doing so would be incredibly misleading (But doesn't stop tesla's PR from doing the same). There are tens of thousands of Tesla vehicles on the road, many of which have been driven for years. However, the strength of Tesla vehicles safety doesn't rest on Tesla vehicles alone. Tesla vehicles are a class of vehicle which implement driver assistance technologies. There are many other cars that do this. Independent analysis of these cars in aggregate have shown them to reduce car accident frequency and severity. https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologies https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologi... > The actions of this company and the persons behind this somehow does not feel compatible with such a goal. I am sorry. I am just not buying it. It is more probable that this "saving the planet" narrative is something that is meant to differentiate from the competition and to attract investors. Tesla is a leader in the renewable energy sector. There is a need for renewable energy as a consequence of climate change. Being a leading player in renewable energy means being a leading player in combating climate change. So Tesla is a leader in combating climate change. Combating climate change is an effort to save the planet. So Tesla is a leading player in the effort toward saving the planet. At no point in the chain of logic is it necessary to call upon the motivations of Elon Musk. If someone were kill another person, the motivation for doing that deed would not change whether or not they did in fact kill someone. In the same manner, the fact that Tesla is helping to solve the problem of climate change is a fact irregardless of the motivation of its founder.

megablast 8y ago

You just ignored every one of my points.

JoshCole 8y ago

There haven't even been five deaths yet in the entire history of Tesla autopilot car accidents, but there are more than three thousand deaths a day due to car accidents. Tesla's safety record actually is such that if scaled up, their would be a massive drop in the number of deaths per day. Their marketing reflects this. So does their communication on the topic. I know it can sound offensive when they say that a driver died without his hands on the wheel in the six seconds leading up to the crash, but their communication is reflective of a desire to preserve life. So I wouldn't call it evil, let alone call it blatantly evil. Stepping back further, away from this accident, Tesla is also a leading player in moving away from destroying our planet. By that I mean they are pushing renewable energy. Again, not something I would call evil, let alone blatantly evil.

blub 8y ago
"Tesla's safety record" is misleading: * every update to the software makes the record irrelevant, because one is no longer driving the same car which set the previous record. Lane centering for instance was introduced in an OTA update and it likely contributed to this accident. * most of the safe miles driven by Teslas are not with autopilot on. The NTSB explicitly said they did not test autopilot. * finally, some HN users did the math and it turns out that humans have overall a better safety record than autopilot Teslas. To me it looks like Tesla's communication is only reflective of covering their asses. From blaming that journalist to the latest accident. Note: I work for a Tesla competitor.
- tigershark 8y ago
  Your first point is absolutely misleading. You can apply the same logic to the other cars saying that they are all different because of the different tyres, the different conditions of the tyres, of the brakes, the different degree of care and so on. You can’t just say that they are not the same cars because of the different variables.
  - etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
    I think OTA driving software updates are a bigger variable than tires. I think you would too if you think about it more.
- JoshCole 8y ago
  I agree that there are aspects of the Tesla safety record which have caveats, but even when I take those caveats into account, I still come out thinking of the Tesla as being relatively safe. The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update. Eventually for example, that same update feature is expected to bring the car to the point of being superhuman in its ability to drive safely. The inability to rely on the autopilot means that I'm still responsible for my own safety, so the autopilot safety isn't as important as the car's safety in general. I disagree that their communication is only reflective of them covering their ass. I feel their is the expectation that self-driving is going to prevent more deaths than it causes. Especially as the technology improves, but even to an extent now if only through the virtue of it not being a system people should be using without being ready to intervene. Don't get me wrong here, you raise good points. I just don't think it's a case of blatant evil. Also, if you have the link to the math, I'd love to read it.
  - buvanshak 8y ago
    >The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update... You don't work in software, right?
    - 8y ago
buvanshak 8y ago
>Tesla's safety record actually is such that if scaled up, their would be a massive drop in the number of deaths per day... There is not enough data to do this "scaling up". So doing so would be incredibly misleading (But doesn't stop tesla's PR from doing the same). >Tesla is also a leading player in moving away from destroying our planet. The actions of this company and the persons behind this somehow does not feel compatible with such a goal. I am sorry. I am just not buying it. It is more probable that this "saving the planet" narrative is something that is meant to differentiate from the competition and to attract investors. Do you think Elon Musk could have created a company that builds ICE cars and emerged as a major player? It is "save the planet" for tesla and "save humanity by going to mars" for spacex.. I mean, is this so hard to see?
- JoshCole 8y ago
  > There is not enough data to do this "scaling up". So doing so would be incredibly misleading (But doesn't stop tesla's PR from doing the same). There are tens of thousands of Tesla vehicles on the road, many of which have been driven for years. However, the strength of Tesla vehicles safety doesn't rest on Tesla vehicles alone. Tesla vehicles are a class of vehicle which implement driver assistance technologies. There are many other cars that do this. Independent analysis of these cars in aggregate have shown them to reduce car accident frequency and severity. https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologies https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologi... > The actions of this company and the persons behind this somehow does not feel compatible with such a goal. I am sorry. I am just not buying it. It is more probable that this "saving the planet" narrative is something that is meant to differentiate from the competition and to attract investors. Tesla is a leader in the renewable energy sector. There is a need for renewable energy as a consequence of climate change. Being a leading player in renewable energy means being a leading player in combating climate change. So Tesla is a leader in combating climate change. Combating climate change is an effort to save the planet. So Tesla is a leading player in the effort toward saving the planet. At no point in the chain of logic is it necessary to call upon the motivations of Elon Musk. If someone were kill another person, the motivation for doing that deed would not change whether or not they did in fact kill someone. In the same manner, the fact that Tesla is helping to solve the problem of climate change is a fact irregardless of the motivation of its founder.