5 ms·

Marvell's tri-core ARM chip has near-PS3-level graphics

47 points by lotusleaf1987 16y ago

zitterbewegung 16y ago
I would like to see actual games on the device to actually judge how good this chip is in relation to the PS3.
- hoggle 16y ago
  Have a look at the "Epic Citadel" tech demo on an iPhone 3GS or 4. We're almost there already , of course subjectively (lower resolution on the mobile displays). The future is now, it really is pretty amazing.
  - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
    Wow that is very impressive, here's a link to the Epic Citadel demo for anyone else interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlCWbxTgds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlCWbxTgds Here's the link in iTunes as well: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/epic-citadel/id388888815?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/epic-citadel/id388888815?mt=8 Also Project Sword looks incredible, coming this holiday season they said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdjgUip0Nc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdjgUip0Nc Also, that Rage demo by John Carmack was amazing also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeXe_G0xmY0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeXe_G0xmY0
jra101 16y ago
Not really an accurate statement. They are basing this entirely off of the theoretical triangle throughput and not comparing pixel shading power, memory bandwidth, cpu perf (those SPUs on the PS3 actually do get used), etc...
- palish 16y ago
  So basically: a completely inaccurate statement.
  - Das_Bruce 16y ago
    I wouldn't even be that generous, it's an outright lie.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  It all depends on who's programming the PS3. ;-)
aresant 16y ago
Useless without pics.
- palish 16y ago
  Considering this is completely about graphics, the parent comment is totally valid.
  - aresant 16y ago
    Thank you for appreciating Friday night downvote bait. Point is technical specifications do not alone support the headline!
- Someone 16y ago
  With pictures, it would be pointless, too. You cannot see from a picture how long it took to draw it, whether that drawing speed can be sustained, etc.
dstein 16y ago
"Given the amount of hardware on this new chip, it's complete overkill for a smartphone. " No it's not! I can't wait to have a killer smartphone with HD graphics on a high-resolution 5" screen. That would really rock. Smartphones this powerful could replace laptops as long as they had monitor-out and usb plugs.
- wtracy 16y ago
  The information is pretty vague, but seems to hint that the power draw is too high for a smartphone. That said, apparently someone has already hacked Symbian to interact with the Wiimote, so the current smartphone hardware is already capable of supporting Bluetooth controllers. If you had S-video out to plug into a TV (or if you supported one of the newfangled wireless video protocols) you could have a gaming console that folds away into your pocket. Oh, the possibilities. :-D
  - wtracy 16y ago
    I hate to reply to myself, but here's a product idea: A Sheeva-plug form-factor device with video output, and Bluetooth support, sold with a set of Bluetooth controllers and a sleek carrying bag with pockets for the cables and controllers. You can carry it to your friend's house in one hand, plug it in to his/her TV set, and be gaming in under two minutes. Package it with a bunch of casual multiplayer games, and whoever owns one will be invited to every party ever. ^_^ You could even sell it to those little businesses that operate children's birthday parties.
  - MHordecki 16y ago
    Evo 4G sports HDMI-out.
- SkyMarshal 16y ago
  And projected light keyboards. :) http://mozillalabs.com/conceptseries/2010/09/23/seabird/ http://mozillalabs.com/conceptseries/2010/09/23/seabird/ Unless foolproof voice recognition comes first.
- jsz0 16y ago
ajg1977 16y ago
Ahh, the old "triangles as an absolute measurement of power" fallacy. Shame on you Ars, shame shame. Still, an amusing headline given that among developers the RSX (the PS3 GPU) is widely acknowledged to be a bit lacking. One of the big challenges of PS3 development these days is figuring out how to move basically everything onto SPUs and leave the RSX as a basic rasterizer.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Three (two-and-a-half) symmetric ARM cores seem to be easier to program than a PPC and an entourage of SPUs. One of the things that always made me wonder about Cell's future is that it looks devilishly hard to program. Wouldn't things like OpenCL sort of ease that pain? IIRC, IBM is one of the companies behind it.
  - Samuel_Michon 16y ago
    "OpenCL was initially developed by Apple Inc., which holds trademark rights, and refined into an initial proposal in collaboration with technical teams at AMD, IBM, Intel, and Nvidia. Apple submitted this initial proposal to the Khronos Group. On June 16, 2008 the Khronos Compute Working Group was formed with representatives from CPU, GPU, embedded-processor, and software companies. This group worked for five months to finish the technical details of the specification for OpenCL 1.0 by November 18, 2008. This technical specification was reviewed by the Khronos members and approved for public release on December 8, 2008" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      IBM has http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/opencl http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/opencl for Linux on PowerPC. It covers Cell.
  - gamble 16y ago
    Many game companies already have proprietary libraries to manage the SPUs. It's still a struggle to make PS3 games look as good as the 360. In fact, I know there are at least a couple of games where the 360 version is crippled to match the lesser quality the developers could wring out of the PS3.
malkia 16y ago
Even if it does, you would need 5 years to understand how to use it to the full, if that is ever allowed, and not limited by what the underlying OpenGL ES 2.00 would give you.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
pietrofmaggi 16y ago
This micro is not for smartphone, Marvell is not in that business. Currently Marvell has the best micro's for Server class machine based on ARM (XScale) architecture, look at the Plug Computer (http://www.marvell.com/platforms/plug_computer/ http://www.marvell.com/platforms/plug_computer/). This last micro, with three core is in the same family of the ones used in the Plug Computer (armada) and in the OpenRD reference platform (http://www.open-rd.org/ http://www.open-rd.org/); And none of this chip are in any smartphone. Not for lack of computing power, but because they have a different target market (and different on-chip peripherals). Marvell's Armada SoC have Gigabit Ethernet and SATA interface on board... not exactly something you need on a smartphone (at least not on mine).
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > This micro is not for smartphone TFA says that on the second paragraph
  - pietrofmaggi 16y ago
    They say that the micro is overkill for a smartphone, I'm saying that Marvell is not in that business. This are two complete different story. Look at current Symbian hw (nokia) and you'll see that for them even Cortex-A8 (the core of current and previous iPhone generations) is overkill. ARM itself is targeting the Cortex-A15 in his single and dual cores implementation to smarphones. And the core is only half (or less) of the story today. On smartphones the GPU is as important as the core... but this is all another story.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      I stand corrected. Sorry. Still... Marvell is not in that business, but neither was MOS in the personal computer business when they launched the 6502 ;-) Accidents happen and the wildest things become real. Besides that, this level of performance will be quite mundane two years from now. In a decade, low-end smartphones will have this kind of capability. Not because they need it, but because nobody makes a simpler part anymore.
rbanffy 16y ago
Good. Now I want a Windows-proof computer I can hook up to a reasonable LCD, keyboard and mouse, with a rich Linux desktop I can use to work. And, while it's no pushing triangles, the GPU could help with OpenCL stuff. Is that too much to ask for? Nobody makes Windows-proof personal computers anymore.
- wtracy 16y ago
  I'm closely watching these guys: http://alwaysinnovating.com/ http://alwaysinnovating.com/
rbanffy 16y ago
I like the "2.5 core" design. The OS can switch off the fast cores if the load goes below a certain level and resurrect them when needed. IIRC Linux kernels had a memory and processor plug-and-play thing in place that could be used to dynamically "plug" and "unplug" cores as required by changing load conditions. Was it limited to SPARC?

47 points by lotusleaf1987 16y ago

zitterbewegung 16y ago

I would like to see actual games on the device to actually judge how good this chip is in relation to the PS3.

hoggle 16y ago
Have a look at the "Epic Citadel" tech demo on an iPhone 3GS or 4. We're almost there already , of course subjectively (lower resolution on the mobile displays). The future is now, it really is pretty amazing.
- lotusleaf1987 16y ago
  Wow that is very impressive, here's a link to the Epic Citadel demo for anyone else interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlCWbxTgds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlCWbxTgds Here's the link in iTunes as well: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/epic-citadel/id388888815?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/epic-citadel/id388888815?mt=8 Also Project Sword looks incredible, coming this holiday season they said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdjgUip0Nc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdjgUip0Nc Also, that Rage demo by John Carmack was amazing also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeXe_G0xmY0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeXe_G0xmY0

jra101 16y ago

Not really an accurate statement. They are basing this entirely off of the theoretical triangle throughput and not comparing pixel shading power, memory bandwidth, cpu perf (those SPUs on the PS3 actually do get used), etc...

palish 16y ago
So basically: a completely inaccurate statement.
- Das_Bruce 16y ago
  I wouldn't even be that generous, it's an outright lie.
rbanffy 16y ago
It all depends on who's programming the PS3. ;-)

aresant 16y ago

Useless without pics.

palish 16y ago
Considering this is completely about graphics, the parent comment is totally valid.
- aresant 16y ago
  Thank you for appreciating Friday night downvote bait. Point is technical specifications do not alone support the headline!
Someone 16y ago
With pictures, it would be pointless, too. You cannot see from a picture how long it took to draw it, whether that drawing speed can be sustained, etc.

dstein 16y ago

"Given the amount of hardware on this new chip, it's complete overkill for a smartphone. " No it's not! I can't wait to have a killer smartphone with HD graphics on a high-resolution 5" screen. That would really rock. Smartphones this powerful could replace laptops as long as they had monitor-out and usb plugs.

wtracy 16y ago
The information is pretty vague, but seems to hint that the power draw is too high for a smartphone. That said, apparently someone has already hacked Symbian to interact with the Wiimote, so the current smartphone hardware is already capable of supporting Bluetooth controllers. If you had S-video out to plug into a TV (or if you supported one of the newfangled wireless video protocols) you could have a gaming console that folds away into your pocket. Oh, the possibilities. :-D
- wtracy 16y ago
  I hate to reply to myself, but here's a product idea: A Sheeva-plug form-factor device with video output, and Bluetooth support, sold with a set of Bluetooth controllers and a sleek carrying bag with pockets for the cables and controllers. You can carry it to your friend's house in one hand, plug it in to his/her TV set, and be gaming in under two minutes. Package it with a bunch of casual multiplayer games, and whoever owns one will be invited to every party ever. ^_^ You could even sell it to those little businesses that operate children's birthday parties.
- MHordecki 16y ago
  Evo 4G sports HDMI-out.
SkyMarshal 16y ago
And projected light keyboards. :) http://mozillalabs.com/conceptseries/2010/09/23/seabird/ http://mozillalabs.com/conceptseries/2010/09/23/seabird/ Unless foolproof voice recognition comes first.
jsz0 16y ago

ajg1977 16y ago

Ahh, the old "triangles as an absolute measurement of power" fallacy. Shame on you Ars, shame shame. Still, an amusing headline given that among developers the RSX (the PS3 GPU) is widely acknowledged to be a bit lacking. One of the big challenges of PS3 development these days is figuring out how to move basically everything onto SPUs and leave the RSX as a basic rasterizer.

rbanffy 16y ago
Three (two-and-a-half) symmetric ARM cores seem to be easier to program than a PPC and an entourage of SPUs. One of the things that always made me wonder about Cell's future is that it looks devilishly hard to program. Wouldn't things like OpenCL sort of ease that pain? IIRC, IBM is one of the companies behind it.
- Samuel_Michon 16y ago
  "OpenCL was initially developed by Apple Inc., which holds trademark rights, and refined into an initial proposal in collaboration with technical teams at AMD, IBM, Intel, and Nvidia. Apple submitted this initial proposal to the Khronos Group. On June 16, 2008 the Khronos Compute Working Group was formed with representatives from CPU, GPU, embedded-processor, and software companies. This group worked for five months to finish the technical details of the specification for OpenCL 1.0 by November 18, 2008. This technical specification was reviewed by the Khronos members and approved for public release on December 8, 2008" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    IBM has http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/opencl http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/opencl for Linux on PowerPC. It covers Cell.
- gamble 16y ago
  Many game companies already have proprietary libraries to manage the SPUs. It's still a struggle to make PS3 games look as good as the 360. In fact, I know there are at least a couple of games where the 360 version is crippled to match the lesser quality the developers could wring out of the PS3.

malkia 16y ago

Even if it does, you would need 5 years to understand how to use it to the full, if that is ever allowed, and not limited by what the underlying OpenGL ES 2.00 would give you.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

pietrofmaggi 16y ago

This micro is not for smartphone, Marvell is not in that business. Currently Marvell has the best micro's for Server class machine based on ARM (XScale) architecture, look at the Plug Computer (http://www.marvell.com/platforms/plug_computer/ http://www.marvell.com/platforms/plug_computer/). This last micro, with three core is in the same family of the ones used in the Plug Computer (armada) and in the OpenRD reference platform (http://www.open-rd.org/ http://www.open-rd.org/); And none of this chip are in any smartphone. Not for lack of computing power, but because they have a different target market (and different on-chip peripherals). Marvell's Armada SoC have Gigabit Ethernet and SATA interface on board... not exactly something you need on a smartphone (at least not on mine).

rbanffy 16y ago
> This micro is not for smartphone TFA says that on the second paragraph
- pietrofmaggi 16y ago
  They say that the micro is overkill for a smartphone, I'm saying that Marvell is not in that business. This are two complete different story. Look at current Symbian hw (nokia) and you'll see that for them even Cortex-A8 (the core of current and previous iPhone generations) is overkill. ARM itself is targeting the Cortex-A15 in his single and dual cores implementation to smarphones. And the core is only half (or less) of the story today. On smartphones the GPU is as important as the core... but this is all another story.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    I stand corrected. Sorry. Still... Marvell is not in that business, but neither was MOS in the personal computer business when they launched the 6502 ;-) Accidents happen and the wildest things become real. Besides that, this level of performance will be quite mundane two years from now. In a decade, low-end smartphones will have this kind of capability. Not because they need it, but because nobody makes a simpler part anymore.

rbanffy 16y ago

Good. Now I want a Windows-proof computer I can hook up to a reasonable LCD, keyboard and mouse, with a rich Linux desktop I can use to work. And, while it's no pushing triangles, the GPU could help with OpenCL stuff. Is that too much to ask for? Nobody makes Windows-proof personal computers anymore.

wtracy 16y ago
I'm closely watching these guys: http://alwaysinnovating.com/ http://alwaysinnovating.com/

rbanffy 16y ago

I like the "2.5 core" design. The OS can switch off the fast cores if the load goes below a certain level and resurrect them when needed. IIRC Linux kernels had a memory and processor plug-and-play thing in place that could be used to dynamically "plug" and "unplug" cores as required by changing load conditions. Was it limited to SPARC?