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There's a passage in the article that I either misunderstood, or the author is somewhat being agressive/hostile towards computer scientists and engineers: > It

There's a passage in the article that I either misunderstood, or the author is somewhat being agressive/hostile towards computer scientists and engineers: > Its users are scientists and engineers; not computer scientists and software engineers, but the real ones. Software engineers are in fact "real" engineers. Who do you think writes the compilers for Fortran. Edit: Read the article twice. The author is Ukranian. Either it's a linguistic mistake, or he really has some sort of prejudice against Software Engineers, in which case I find that sad.

ztjio 8y ago
It’s a common, and I believe very fair criticism of the title “Software Engineer” that there is nowhere near the rigor and requirements that “real” engineers (structural engineers, mechanical engineers) must deal with. There’s no licensing. No proof you know what you’re doing. And sure, that’s probably because mostly software isn’t responsible for life or death situations like bridges and buildings are constantly. But honestly, the term “Software Engineer” is a farce at best. So maybe the author is in the camp that worries too much about meaningless titles.
- aneutron 8y ago
  I respectfully disagree with your point of view. There are certain things that are very ... softwar-y, and only engineers who know how to handle software well can come up with. Google's Percolator, the plethora of Apache data crunshing stacks, whole paradigm shifts like Object Storage, virtualization, and so on. Some of these are the equivalent of Burj Khalifa. Not anyone, or any team for that matter, can build them correctly. Which is why I think the term Software Engineer and the concept of software engineering is very justifiable. Yes, I think it is a form of engineering, in the sense that it a tangible discipline that produces artifacts that are useful to humans and that require very specific scientific knowledge and a minimum of academic background. Just my two cents on the matter.
  - andrewflnr 8y ago
    "Software engineering" is definitely a real thing. The vast majority of people who call themselves "software engineers" aren't doing it. They're doing the equivalent of cabinetry at best.
- electricslpnsld 8y ago
  This is a pretty common sentiment in Europe, at least. Less so in the Americas. It looks like the author of the post is Ukrainian. Hell, the Germans even get mad if someone claims a 'Dr.' title and they haven't completed some post-Ph.D. secondary dissertation thing from a German University.
- sp4rki 8y ago
  I'm sorry but that assertion is a farce in itself in my opinion. I enrolled in the best University in my country for Civil Engineering and dropped after my second semester. I did the same for Computer Engineering and International Business. I made a boatload of money selling final projects (I know...) for people from year one to year five. It's pretty easy to go through the motions and get those three to five years done if the paper motivates you. My experience (YMMV) is that all these "Engineers" go out into the world as rookies anyways. I've dealt with rookie Civil Engineers that couldn't understand the blueprints for a two story house and "Computer Engineers" that couldn't code their way out of a React Todo List. Experience trumps all if you ask me and if we really want to regulate the "Title" then it should be based on experience and achievements vs a paper that says you went to X or Y. I might be biased because I decided to drop out and go build experience, but I've hired from both sides and I've come to the conclusion that raw talent and experience dictate how much of an "Engineer" you really are.
na85 8y ago
"Software engineers", in my experience, mostly aren't. Having a computer science degree doesn't make you an engineer, nor is stitching javascript libraries together to make a web app engineering. There are software engineers out there, doing engineering work, but most of the people who call themselves software engineers are not.
- gnufx 8y ago
  Unfortunately, in the context that Fortran is likely to be used, this seems to be true specifically for Research Software Engineers.
ThJ 8y ago
In Norwegian, there is no word "software engineer" because an engineer title requires an engineering degree. There is a "computer engineer" degree, but it focuses primarily on computer hardware engineering. There is also the field of "informatics", but that's basically equivalent to theoretical computer science and is thus a branch of mathematics, not engineering. Programming is taught in universities, of course, but is considered more of a practical skill than an academic discipline in of itself. I think this applies to much of Europe. Thus, in Europe, you're a programmer or a developer, but never a software engineer, which is more of an Americanism.
- ThJ 8y ago
  If I attempted to call myself an engineer (in any discipline) without having the requisite degree, people would probably laugh behind my back: "Why does he feel so insecure that he has to pretend to have an engineering degree?"
- aneutron 8y ago
  Oh quit your bullshit, I'm a student in France and there is Génie Logiciel which is in fact software engineering. Don't generalize.

ztjio 8y ago

It’s a common, and I believe very fair criticism of the title “Software Engineer” that there is nowhere near the rigor and requirements that “real” engineers (structural engineers, mechanical engineers) must deal with. There’s no licensing. No proof you know what you’re doing. And sure, that’s probably because mostly software isn’t responsible for life or death situations like bridges and buildings are constantly. But honestly, the term “Software Engineer” is a farce at best. So maybe the author is in the camp that worries too much about meaningless titles.

aneutron 8y ago
I respectfully disagree with your point of view. There are certain things that are very ... softwar-y, and only engineers who know how to handle software well can come up with. Google's Percolator, the plethora of Apache data crunshing stacks, whole paradigm shifts like Object Storage, virtualization, and so on. Some of these are the equivalent of Burj Khalifa. Not anyone, or any team for that matter, can build them correctly. Which is why I think the term Software Engineer and the concept of software engineering is very justifiable. Yes, I think it is a form of engineering, in the sense that it a tangible discipline that produces artifacts that are useful to humans and that require very specific scientific knowledge and a minimum of academic background. Just my two cents on the matter.
- andrewflnr 8y ago
  "Software engineering" is definitely a real thing. The vast majority of people who call themselves "software engineers" aren't doing it. They're doing the equivalent of cabinetry at best.
electricslpnsld 8y ago
This is a pretty common sentiment in Europe, at least. Less so in the Americas. It looks like the author of the post is Ukrainian. Hell, the Germans even get mad if someone claims a 'Dr.' title and they haven't completed some post-Ph.D. secondary dissertation thing from a German University.
sp4rki 8y ago
I'm sorry but that assertion is a farce in itself in my opinion. I enrolled in the best University in my country for Civil Engineering and dropped after my second semester. I did the same for Computer Engineering and International Business. I made a boatload of money selling final projects (I know...) for people from year one to year five. It's pretty easy to go through the motions and get those three to five years done if the paper motivates you. My experience (YMMV) is that all these "Engineers" go out into the world as rookies anyways. I've dealt with rookie Civil Engineers that couldn't understand the blueprints for a two story house and "Computer Engineers" that couldn't code their way out of a React Todo List. Experience trumps all if you ask me and if we really want to regulate the "Title" then it should be based on experience and achievements vs a paper that says you went to X or Y. I might be biased because I decided to drop out and go build experience, but I've hired from both sides and I've come to the conclusion that raw talent and experience dictate how much of an "Engineer" you really are.

na85 8y ago

"Software engineers", in my experience, mostly aren't. Having a computer science degree doesn't make you an engineer, nor is stitching javascript libraries together to make a web app engineering. There are software engineers out there, doing engineering work, but most of the people who call themselves software engineers are not.

gnufx 8y ago
Unfortunately, in the context that Fortran is likely to be used, this seems to be true specifically for Research Software Engineers.

ThJ 8y ago

In Norwegian, there is no word "software engineer" because an engineer title requires an engineering degree. There is a "computer engineer" degree, but it focuses primarily on computer hardware engineering. There is also the field of "informatics", but that's basically equivalent to theoretical computer science and is thus a branch of mathematics, not engineering. Programming is taught in universities, of course, but is considered more of a practical skill than an academic discipline in of itself. I think this applies to much of Europe. Thus, in Europe, you're a programmer or a developer, but never a software engineer, which is more of an Americanism.

ThJ 8y ago
If I attempted to call myself an engineer (in any discipline) without having the requisite degree, people would probably laugh behind my back: "Why does he feel so insecure that he has to pretend to have an engineering degree?"
aneutron 8y ago
Oh quit your bullshit, I'm a student in France and there is Génie Logiciel which is in fact software engineering. Don't generalize.