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>Cars have been dependent on software for a long time (literally decades). This isn't something new. Even combustion engine cars have had software inside of the

>Cars have been dependent on software for a long time (literally decades). This isn't something new. Even combustion engine cars have had software inside of them that controls the operation of the engine, and this software is vigorously tested for safety issues (because most car manufacturers understand a fault with such software could result in someone's death). Tesla seems to be the only major car manufacturer that has a problem with this. The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles. I wouldn't be surprised if their Lane Keeping Assist (LKA) systems have similar problems. https://support.volvocars.com/en-CA/cars/Pages/owners-manual.aspx?mc=l541&my=2018&sw=17w46&article=96ad4d2183b62a59c0a8015176bd1b81 https://support.volvocars.com/en-CA/cars/Pages/owners-manual... >WARNING When Pilot Assist follows another vehicle at speeds overapprox. 30 km/h (20 mph) and changes target vehicle – from a moving vehicle to a stationary one – Pilot Assist will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead accelerate to the stored speed. >The driver must then intervene and apply the brakes.

codedokode 8y ago
> The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles. Software should not be driving a car into any of them. I think that LIDAR would see the obstacle, but as I understand, the crashed Tesla car didn't have it.
- omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
  LIDAR probably would have seen the obstacle and avoided it, but so would a human driver who was operating the vehicle responsibly and correctly. It sucks that people treat level 2 systems and level 3 or 4, but the same thing applies to many convenience features in a car (cruise control, power brakes, etc...). There's always going to be some bozo doing what they shouldn't be doing with something. I'd love to see LIDAR on consumer vehicles, but AFAIK it's prohibitively expensive. And to be fair, even Level 4 autonomous vehicles still crash into things and kill people. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/uber-self-driving-system-saw-pedestrian-killed-but-didn-t-stop https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/uber-self... Last but not least, every semi-autonomous system all the way back to Chrysler's "AUTO-PILOT" has had similar criticisms. People in the past even said similar things about high speed highways compared to other roads WRT attention. http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/history/automotive-history-capsule-chryslers-1958-auto-pilot-56-years-before-teslas-autopilot/ http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/history/automotive-histo... https://books.google.com/books?id=YpGkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=chrysler+imperial+%22auto-pilot%22+dangerous&source=bl&ots=EYrN1Ett0c&sig=cnmHySS-pnBXDBJR-159I7MiV8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFx6Slg8XbAhUJl5AKHRGXCKwQ6AEIcjAP#v=onepage&q=chrysler%20imperial%20%22auto-pilot%22%20dangerous&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=YpGkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=...
darkerside 8y ago
This comparison just sold me on how morally wrong it is what Tesla is doing. Intentionally misleading and marketing to customers a feature called Autopilot that is only a marginal improvement on what other cars already offer. What if Volvo started calling their (clearly not independent) feature Autopilot and saying it was the future of hands-free driving? Seems inexcusable.
- slg 8y ago
  Which is also exactly what GM is doing with Super Cruise. Here is just one of their commercials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__51kTl4j8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__51kTl4j8 Despite this warning in the manual[1]: >Super Cruise is not a crash avoidance system and will not steer or brake to avoid a crash. Super Cruise does not steer to prevent a crash with stopped or slow-moving vehicles. You must supervise the driving task and may need to steer and brake to prevent a crash, especially in stop-and-go traffic or when a vehicle suddenly enters your lane. Always pay attention when using Super Cruise. Failure to do so could result in a crash involving serious injury or death. [1] - https://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/cadillac/na/us/english/index/ownership/technology/supercruise/pdfs/2018-cad-ct6-owners-manual.pdf https://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/cadillac/na/us/english/...
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Riffing off the parallel thread about Google AI and how "corporations are controlled by humans" and can have moral values - no, corporations are controlled primarily by the market forces. When Tesla started branding line assist as autopilot, it put market pressure on others to follow suit. Hence, I'm absolutely not surprised about this ad and the associated warning in the manual.
    - darkerside 8y ago
      TBF, corporations are controlled by humans and overwhelmingly influenced by market forces, which are also controlled by (other) humans. That's a nitpick. Your broader point about Tesla pressuring the market down an unfortunate path is spot on.
friendzis 8y ago
> The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles. Literally every car I have driven equipped with Cruise Control and Collision Avoidance (TACC) hits the brakes and slows down to 20-ish km/h if it senses ANYTHING moving slower (including stationary) in front of the car at possible collision path.

codedokode 8y ago

> The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles. Software should not be driving a car into any of them. I think that LIDAR would see the obstacle, but as I understand, the crashed Tesla car didn't have it.

omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
LIDAR probably would have seen the obstacle and avoided it, but so would a human driver who was operating the vehicle responsibly and correctly. It sucks that people treat level 2 systems and level 3 or 4, but the same thing applies to many convenience features in a car (cruise control, power brakes, etc...). There's always going to be some bozo doing what they shouldn't be doing with something. I'd love to see LIDAR on consumer vehicles, but AFAIK it's prohibitively expensive. And to be fair, even Level 4 autonomous vehicles still crash into things and kill people. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/uber-self-driving-system-saw-pedestrian-killed-but-didn-t-stop https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/uber-self... Last but not least, every semi-autonomous system all the way back to Chrysler's "AUTO-PILOT" has had similar criticisms. People in the past even said similar things about high speed highways compared to other roads WRT attention. http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/history/automotive-history-capsule-chryslers-1958-auto-pilot-56-years-before-teslas-autopilot/ http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/history/automotive-histo... https://books.google.com/books?id=YpGkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=chrysler+imperial+%22auto-pilot%22+dangerous&source=bl&ots=EYrN1Ett0c&sig=cnmHySS-pnBXDBJR-159I7MiV8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFx6Slg8XbAhUJl5AKHRGXCKwQ6AEIcjAP#v=onepage&q=chrysler%20imperial%20%22auto-pilot%22%20dangerous&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=YpGkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=...

darkerside 8y ago

This comparison just sold me on how morally wrong it is what Tesla is doing. Intentionally misleading and marketing to customers a feature called Autopilot that is only a marginal improvement on what other cars already offer. What if Volvo started calling their (clearly not independent) feature Autopilot and saying it was the future of hands-free driving? Seems inexcusable.

slg 8y ago
Which is also exactly what GM is doing with Super Cruise. Here is just one of their commercials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__51kTl4j8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__51kTl4j8 Despite this warning in the manual[1]: >Super Cruise is not a crash avoidance system and will not steer or brake to avoid a crash. Super Cruise does not steer to prevent a crash with stopped or slow-moving vehicles. You must supervise the driving task and may need to steer and brake to prevent a crash, especially in stop-and-go traffic or when a vehicle suddenly enters your lane. Always pay attention when using Super Cruise. Failure to do so could result in a crash involving serious injury or death. [1] - https://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/cadillac/na/us/english/index/ownership/technology/supercruise/pdfs/2018-cad-ct6-owners-manual.pdf https://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/cadillac/na/us/english/...
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Riffing off the parallel thread about Google AI and how "corporations are controlled by humans" and can have moral values - no, corporations are controlled primarily by the market forces. When Tesla started branding line assist as autopilot, it put market pressure on others to follow suit. Hence, I'm absolutely not surprised about this ad and the associated warning in the manual.
  - darkerside 8y ago
    TBF, corporations are controlled by humans and overwhelmingly influenced by market forces, which are also controlled by (other) humans. That's a nitpick. Your broader point about Tesla pressuring the market down an unfortunate path is spot on.

friendzis 8y ago

> The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles. Literally every car I have driven equipped with Cruise Control and Collision Avoidance (TACC) hits the brakes and slows down to 20-ish km/h if it senses ANYTHING moving slower (including stationary) in front of the car at possible collision path.