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There is still room for quality payment services like this. In particular, high-risk and micro-payments, would be great niches to get into. The primary problem

There is still room for quality payment services like this. In particular, high-risk and micro-payments, would be great niches to get into. The primary problem is that to do this right, you will need to spend a lot on legal fees or find a lawyer to work for equity in your idea(you wouldn't even have a single customer yet). I've run the scenario a million times and I would love to create a start-up that can disrupt, maybe even revolutionize the payment processing industry. My friend runs one of the big PayPal sucks sites, and makes several million collecting residuals by forwarding angry PayPal customers to open a real merchant account. I've seen first hand every possible complaint and gripe you can imagine. Someone find me a VC that wants in on this. I'll take a $1 salary.

InclinedPlane 16y ago
As a consumer it's easy to say "PayPal sucks!" because you only see one side of things. If you try to create a replacement you would see just how incredibly difficult it is to run a worldwide online bank. If you're ok lying back and serving as a money laundering conduit up until the point that every government in the industrialized and developing world shuts you down, then fine. Otherwise you've got a lot of legwork to do.
jasonlotito 16y ago
Yes, and no. I had a startup in this industry, and I still work in it. Here's your biggest problem. It isn't PayPal or Google or any online service. It's the credit card companies and the banks that control this. The best part is, your entire business will be based on the premise that the bank lets you process. They can drop you for whatever reason. It's not hard. Trust me, they'll manufacture whatever evidence they need to. Sure, you could take them to court, but meanwhile, you are without processing. No. You cannot disrupt an industry when you rely on that industry to help you disrupt it. Of course, you could bypass the credit card companies all together. A lot of companies do this with prepaid cards. Not only does it allow those without a credit card purchase their service. You could create a generic pricing card. But then you have to convince merchants to use your system, a system that has no users. And users need to buy your cards with no merchants on board. It's a chicken and egg problem. Honestly, I think social networks will play a part in this in some manner. Flattr, while using credit cards, shows a unique angle on micro-payments, and is probably the first really innovative payment scheme I've seen since... well, ever since credit cards. Being positioned in Europe probably helps matters.
- pinksoda 16y ago
  The banks only want to drop you if you're attracting too many charge-backs, fraud, or money laundering. If you have a good system in place to minimize these problems, they will gladly take their processing fee from each and every transaction you process and they will do it with a smile. PayPal's automated fraud detection is notoriously inaccurate. They also don't have very good customer service. For years their phone number was hidden 10 pages deep where no one could find it. They freeze your account and hide from you. A while back they ran into some trouble with the bank that was sponsoring their merchant account, they had to quickly make changes to keep processing. Instead of spending money to improve their fraud/risk algorithm, they just lowered the threshold that triggers an account freeze, which helps with fraud but also drastically increases the number of false-positives, which they consider acceptable collateral damage. They aren't even nice about it. Why tell me my account is "frozen"? Why can't they say "Congratulations on the recent spike in transactions. Your business must be doing well and we are delighted to hear that! Please give us a call when you can so we can go over some additional documentation that we will need from you". Think about this: PayPal freezes your account, which brings your business to a halt, then you have to scramble to fix it. PayPal doesn't need to freeze your account, they can just as easily prevent you from withdrawing money to your bank account, which sucks but it probably won't kill your business. At least your customers can still pay you. They even have a "window" to reverse most transactions, but they would rather just freeze your account and act all nonchalant about it. The logistics of PayPal is all wrong. Work with your customers, not against them.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    > The banks only want to drop you if you're attracting too many charge-backs, fraud, or money laundering. If you have a good system in place to minimize these problems, they will gladly take their processing fee from each and every transaction you process and they will do it with a smile. Wrong. I know this first hand. First, "banks" do not decide whether you process or not. People do, and these people are, in my experience, fairly corrupt. Most people don't deal with the banks directly, but even if they do, the agents their aren't just dealing with you. All it takes is for you and a competitor to end up using the same bank, and if that competitor is bigger than you, they can push you out. It's not difficult. I've been on the receiving end of this. I've heard it all. I've had the agent on the phone, and wouldn't answer the question regarding which transaction they were claiming was against their policy. A few weeks later, after closing us down, the send us the information for a transaction that occurred after they shut us down, claiming that was why we were closed. Chargeback levels? Well below the threshold. We had practically no actual fraudulent transactions, and more than 95% of the transactions that were pending chargebacks were friendly fraud (authorized card holder claiming a chargeback). I'm not talking about some small time shop. We were pumping 8 figures through our banks at our prime, all as legit as we could make it (which at the time, was far more secure than most other processors at the time). Your sentiments are right. The banks are interested in money, and if you are bringing in the transactions, they'll process. Unfortunately, if you're a small fish in a big pond (and yes, a small fish processing in the 10s of millions a year), and a bigger fish wants you put down, the bank will take the work to keep the big fish happy. And if it sounds like I'm pissed, it's because I am. It's working so hard for so many years, pushing forth so many cool things, just to see it collapse. Not because you did anything wrong, but because someone maliciously screwed you over. That's why I avoid looking at anything as a startup that forces me to rely on a single point of failure. Working with Visa and MasterCard puts you under their control. Sure, accepting money online puts you at their mercy as well, but it's not the same as building your business being an actual processor. Anyways, I've rambled on long enough. Don't take offense if I caused any. That wasn't my intent.
Skroob 16y ago
Obviously, a good payment service like this is not a simple problem, but the market is there. PayPal gets a lot of really well deserved hatred, and I can tell you from experience that they treat their merchants just as much like garbage as they treat consumers. How they manage to remain in business with everybody hating them boggles my mind, but it also screams opportunity.
il 16y ago
Even if you avoid fraud and the payment processors, the US government will almost certainly shut you down. They don't like competition. See e-gold,1mdc, Liberty Reserve,Phoenix Dollar,etc,etc - pretty much anyone who has tried to create an alternative currency or payment system.
- pinksoda 16y ago
  If you comply with state, federal and any other involved regulatory agency then you'll be fine. Payment systems can have a huge impact on the entire economy, create new businesses, and drive existing business growth.
- tudorw 16y ago
  anyone accepting bitcoin?
arethuza 16y ago
You mean something like Xbox Live points but for any site - not just linked to Xbox content?
- Raphael 16y ago
  Actually, one could leverage existing "points" platforms: give them something nominal in-platform, such as a game or virtual item, but also credit some points of your own. Then partner with many websites to make your points valuable (sharing revenue from the first platform when your points are spent on the websites).
  - patio11 16y ago
    You said the magic words: points are redeemable for money. Congratulations on your entry into international money services! Please send a truck around at your convenience to pick up the relevant regulations. Please make sure your convenience is immediately or we will seize your accounts and possibly prosecute you for money laundering.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      I wonder how the SecondLife people handle this--their "lindens" are redeemable for money.
    - Raphael 16y ago
      Wow, you're right. It's a crime to start a business. A sad day for humanity.
rdl 16y ago
I am sort of interested in doing a vertical-market payment app, similar to paypal, in a well-regulated, legal US market where paypal refuses to transact for utterly bullshit political reasons. There was a recent (2010) player who folded due to internal mismanagement/fraud, but it's fundamentally a pretty good market, and if you can launch a simple payment system in that one, you can move on to other niches. The problem with a payment system in 2010 vs. 1995 is that credit cards and paypal are "good enough" for most applications. The only niches available are micropayments (never proven to be viable), markets incompatible with paypal or cc (square extends cc; P2P, international, high risk, porn, gaming, other banned things), or non-cash transactions (trading credits for WoW, or gigabytes of storage, etc., might be an option)

InclinedPlane 16y ago

As a consumer it's easy to say "PayPal sucks!" because you only see one side of things. If you try to create a replacement you would see just how incredibly difficult it is to run a worldwide online bank. If you're ok lying back and serving as a money laundering conduit up until the point that every government in the industrialized and developing world shuts you down, then fine. Otherwise you've got a lot of legwork to do.

jasonlotito 16y ago

Yes, and no. I had a startup in this industry, and I still work in it. Here's your biggest problem. It isn't PayPal or Google or any online service. It's the credit card companies and the banks that control this. The best part is, your entire business will be based on the premise that the bank lets you process. They can drop you for whatever reason. It's not hard. Trust me, they'll manufacture whatever evidence they need to. Sure, you could take them to court, but meanwhile, you are without processing. No. You cannot disrupt an industry when you rely on that industry to help you disrupt it. Of course, you could bypass the credit card companies all together. A lot of companies do this with prepaid cards. Not only does it allow those without a credit card purchase their service. You could create a generic pricing card. But then you have to convince merchants to use your system, a system that has no users. And users need to buy your cards with no merchants on board. It's a chicken and egg problem. Honestly, I think social networks will play a part in this in some manner. Flattr, while using credit cards, shows a unique angle on micro-payments, and is probably the first really innovative payment scheme I've seen since... well, ever since credit cards. Being positioned in Europe probably helps matters.

pinksoda 16y ago
The banks only want to drop you if you're attracting too many charge-backs, fraud, or money laundering. If you have a good system in place to minimize these problems, they will gladly take their processing fee from each and every transaction you process and they will do it with a smile. PayPal's automated fraud detection is notoriously inaccurate. They also don't have very good customer service. For years their phone number was hidden 10 pages deep where no one could find it. They freeze your account and hide from you. A while back they ran into some trouble with the bank that was sponsoring their merchant account, they had to quickly make changes to keep processing. Instead of spending money to improve their fraud/risk algorithm, they just lowered the threshold that triggers an account freeze, which helps with fraud but also drastically increases the number of false-positives, which they consider acceptable collateral damage. They aren't even nice about it. Why tell me my account is "frozen"? Why can't they say "Congratulations on the recent spike in transactions. Your business must be doing well and we are delighted to hear that! Please give us a call when you can so we can go over some additional documentation that we will need from you". Think about this: PayPal freezes your account, which brings your business to a halt, then you have to scramble to fix it. PayPal doesn't need to freeze your account, they can just as easily prevent you from withdrawing money to your bank account, which sucks but it probably won't kill your business. At least your customers can still pay you. They even have a "window" to reverse most transactions, but they would rather just freeze your account and act all nonchalant about it. The logistics of PayPal is all wrong. Work with your customers, not against them.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  > The banks only want to drop you if you're attracting too many charge-backs, fraud, or money laundering. If you have a good system in place to minimize these problems, they will gladly take their processing fee from each and every transaction you process and they will do it with a smile. Wrong. I know this first hand. First, "banks" do not decide whether you process or not. People do, and these people are, in my experience, fairly corrupt. Most people don't deal with the banks directly, but even if they do, the agents their aren't just dealing with you. All it takes is for you and a competitor to end up using the same bank, and if that competitor is bigger than you, they can push you out. It's not difficult. I've been on the receiving end of this. I've heard it all. I've had the agent on the phone, and wouldn't answer the question regarding which transaction they were claiming was against their policy. A few weeks later, after closing us down, the send us the information for a transaction that occurred after they shut us down, claiming that was why we were closed. Chargeback levels? Well below the threshold. We had practically no actual fraudulent transactions, and more than 95% of the transactions that were pending chargebacks were friendly fraud (authorized card holder claiming a chargeback). I'm not talking about some small time shop. We were pumping 8 figures through our banks at our prime, all as legit as we could make it (which at the time, was far more secure than most other processors at the time). Your sentiments are right. The banks are interested in money, and if you are bringing in the transactions, they'll process. Unfortunately, if you're a small fish in a big pond (and yes, a small fish processing in the 10s of millions a year), and a bigger fish wants you put down, the bank will take the work to keep the big fish happy. And if it sounds like I'm pissed, it's because I am. It's working so hard for so many years, pushing forth so many cool things, just to see it collapse. Not because you did anything wrong, but because someone maliciously screwed you over. That's why I avoid looking at anything as a startup that forces me to rely on a single point of failure. Working with Visa and MasterCard puts you under their control. Sure, accepting money online puts you at their mercy as well, but it's not the same as building your business being an actual processor. Anyways, I've rambled on long enough. Don't take offense if I caused any. That wasn't my intent.

Skroob 16y ago

Obviously, a good payment service like this is not a simple problem, but the market is there. PayPal gets a lot of really well deserved hatred, and I can tell you from experience that they treat their merchants just as much like garbage as they treat consumers. How they manage to remain in business with everybody hating them boggles my mind, but it also screams opportunity.

il 16y ago

Even if you avoid fraud and the payment processors, the US government will almost certainly shut you down. They don't like competition. See e-gold,1mdc, Liberty Reserve,Phoenix Dollar,etc,etc - pretty much anyone who has tried to create an alternative currency or payment system.

pinksoda 16y ago
If you comply with state, federal and any other involved regulatory agency then you'll be fine. Payment systems can have a huge impact on the entire economy, create new businesses, and drive existing business growth.
tudorw 16y ago
anyone accepting bitcoin?

arethuza 16y ago

You mean something like Xbox Live points but for any site - not just linked to Xbox content?

Raphael 16y ago
Actually, one could leverage existing "points" platforms: give them something nominal in-platform, such as a game or virtual item, but also credit some points of your own. Then partner with many websites to make your points valuable (sharing revenue from the first platform when your points are spent on the websites).
- patio11 16y ago
  You said the magic words: points are redeemable for money. Congratulations on your entry into international money services! Please send a truck around at your convenience to pick up the relevant regulations. Please make sure your convenience is immediately or we will seize your accounts and possibly prosecute you for money laundering.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    I wonder how the SecondLife people handle this--their "lindens" are redeemable for money.
  - Raphael 16y ago
    Wow, you're right. It's a crime to start a business. A sad day for humanity.

rdl 16y ago

I am sort of interested in doing a vertical-market payment app, similar to paypal, in a well-regulated, legal US market where paypal refuses to transact for utterly bullshit political reasons. There was a recent (2010) player who folded due to internal mismanagement/fraud, but it's fundamentally a pretty good market, and if you can launch a simple payment system in that one, you can move on to other niches. The problem with a payment system in 2010 vs. 1995 is that credit cards and paypal are "good enough" for most applications. The only niches available are micropayments (never proven to be viable), markets incompatible with paypal or cc (square extends cc; P2P, international, high risk, porn, gaming, other banned things), or non-cash transactions (trading credits for WoW, or gigabytes of storage, etc., might be an option)