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The industry is not a closed system. People can leave or join it at any point in their careers, and they may (read: do) do so because they can't find jobs or th

The industry is not a closed system. People can leave or join it at any point in their careers, and they may (read: do) do so because they can't find jobs or the jobs they do find are hostile to them.

manfredo 8y ago
Unemployment in tech is exceedingly low, and there have been more openings than workers for a while. And the latter point is essentially the other side of the same coin as compared to the point that I'm making: it's whether prior people join or leave the system as a whole that ultimately dictates diversity. I agree that tech isn't a closed system. But moving diverse candidates from one part of the system to another does not actually increase diversity. Getting people into the system does that.
- stormbrew 8y ago
  That there are more openings than workers does not mean that every potential worker experiences the same hireability. The entire issue here is that hiring biases towards a certain type of person and against another. A woman may struggle to find a job while an equally qualified man does not. The woman may exit the industry. She does not become part of the 'pool' unless she stays. This is how pushing for diversity in hiring can expand the pool of available workers, and how a company hiring marginalized people can be doing something other than cannibalizing other hirers (because those other employers are not bothering).
  - manfredo 8y ago
    > A woman may struggle to find a job while an equally qualified man does not. The woman may exit the industry. She does not become part of the 'pool' unless she stays. No, she joins the pool the moment she starts and she leaves the pool when she leaves. If a company wants to keep people from leaving the pool, then the company should focus on reducing attrition. Hiring more diverse candidates doesn't necessarily reduce attrition. Remember Uber had 23% of it's workforce women at one point, it didn't help their environment.
    - mseebach 8y ago
      When it comes to considering the working environment, I think it's informative to consider investment banking: a field infamous for pretty much all sorts of toxicity. Yet, it doesn't suffer from any particular gender diversity problems. That's not to say that we should be OK with an abusive environment, or that we shouldn't always strive to make the environment better for everyone. It's just unlikely to be a key causal driver of low diversity in tech.

manfredo 8y ago

Unemployment in tech is exceedingly low, and there have been more openings than workers for a while. And the latter point is essentially the other side of the same coin as compared to the point that I'm making: it's whether prior people join or leave the system as a whole that ultimately dictates diversity. I agree that tech isn't a closed system. But moving diverse candidates from one part of the system to another does not actually increase diversity. Getting people into the system does that.

stormbrew 8y ago
That there are more openings than workers does not mean that every potential worker experiences the same hireability. The entire issue here is that hiring biases towards a certain type of person and against another. A woman may struggle to find a job while an equally qualified man does not. The woman may exit the industry. She does not become part of the 'pool' unless she stays. This is how pushing for diversity in hiring can expand the pool of available workers, and how a company hiring marginalized people can be doing something other than cannibalizing other hirers (because those other employers are not bothering).
- manfredo 8y ago
  > A woman may struggle to find a job while an equally qualified man does not. The woman may exit the industry. She does not become part of the 'pool' unless she stays. No, she joins the pool the moment she starts and she leaves the pool when she leaves. If a company wants to keep people from leaving the pool, then the company should focus on reducing attrition. Hiring more diverse candidates doesn't necessarily reduce attrition. Remember Uber had 23% of it's workforce women at one point, it didn't help their environment.
  - mseebach 8y ago
    When it comes to considering the working environment, I think it's informative to consider investment banking: a field infamous for pretty much all sorts of toxicity. Yet, it doesn't suffer from any particular gender diversity problems. That's not to say that we should be OK with an abusive environment, or that we shouldn't always strive to make the environment better for everyone. It's just unlikely to be a key causal driver of low diversity in tech.