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>>well understood and accepted link between increased unionization and increased unemployment. Yes, I know what point the parent was making, and I agreed with

by patmcc 8y ago

>>well understood and accepted link between increased unionization and increased unemployment. Yes, I know what point the parent was making, and I agreed with that; my points also stand. Unemployment isn't the only consideration - if we had no labour laws or minimum wage I bet unemployment would be lower too. >> closed union shops You need to look at your history more carefully. Closed union shops have been illegal in the US since 1947. The Supreme Court decided in 1985 that a union member can resign from a union at any time (and keep employment). Unions are able to collect "agency fees", but THAT IS ALL - they cannot enforce membership. No forced membership, no entry fee (if you don't join), no closed union shops, no fines imposed by the union (if you don't join). You can get a job at a unionized shop, pay the agency fees, and never join the union. >> Unfair, unfree elections Absolutely there are some corrupt unions with shitty elections, bribes, rent seeking, etc. Same is true for any hierarchy or any democratic process. Saying no one should unionize because some are corrupt is like saying countries are a bad idea because Putin rigs elections.

hpcjoe 8y ago
Looking at history, and some recent (2010) articles before we changed. See [1][2][3] The laws to which you refer ar the Taft-Hartley act, and the NLR act. As for the "no forced membership", it was seemingly easier for local companies to bend to outrageous demands of unions in their contract language, than it was to actually enforce the law as written. There are quite a number of lawsuits apparently about the closed shop nature of many Michigan companies with unions, up and until that right to work was passed. After that, not so much. > Absolutely there are some corrupt unions with shitty elections, bribes, rent seeking, etc. I've not seen counter examples where the unions were not corrupt, rent seeking, etc. I'd love to. This ranges from 11yo me caught in the nastiest teacher strike in the US, where my own teachers were throwing rocks at me in my school bus, though 32yo me being told not to move computers my company was trying to sell to Ford because that was a union job, and there would be consequences to that. So yeah ... in my entire life, currently north of 50 years, 39 of it with experience with unions, I've not seen an example of a positive force a union plays. Anywhere. Many people are in my position, many have seen the corruption, the violence, the rent seeking, etc. personally. > Same is true for any hierarchy or any democratic process. Power has a tendency to corrupt. This is why there must be competing forces for the power, each jealously guarding its interest. > Saying no one should unionize because some are corrupt is like saying countries are a bad idea because Putin rigs elections. This is a poor analogy. The two are not comparable. Also, I did not say "no one should unionize because some are corrupt". I said "unions are corrupt". There may be a vanishingly small number of counterexamples. But I have not personally encountered any. Putin is as Putin does. If he really invested $2M in the ads that no one saw on FB and TWTR, and that swayed the US election ... yeah, I'd be pissed. [1] https://www.varnumlaw.com/newsroom-publications-michigan-a-right-to-work-state https://www.varnumlaw.com/newsroom-publications-michigan-a-r... [2] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter15-5.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-... . Closed union shops can be ... closed union shops. [3] http://www.nrtw.org/union-discipline-and-employee-rights/ http://www.nrtw.org/union-discipline-and-employee-rights/ which details the purposefully misleading way many of these membership agreements, collective bargaining agreements, etc. were constructed, as well as the language and insinuations on the part of union officials to the workers.

by patmcc 8y ago

hpcjoe 8y ago

Looking at history, and some recent (2010) articles before we changed. See [1][2][3] The laws to which you refer ar the Taft-Hartley act, and the NLR act. As for the "no forced membership", it was seemingly easier for local companies to bend to outrageous demands of unions in their contract language, than it was to actually enforce the law as written. There are quite a number of lawsuits apparently about the closed shop nature of many Michigan companies with unions, up and until that right to work was passed. After that, not so much. > Absolutely there are some corrupt unions with shitty elections, bribes, rent seeking, etc. I've not seen counter examples where the unions were not corrupt, rent seeking, etc. I'd love to. This ranges from 11yo me caught in the nastiest teacher strike in the US, where my own teachers were throwing rocks at me in my school bus, though 32yo me being told not to move computers my company was trying to sell to Ford because that was a union job, and there would be consequences to that. So yeah ... in my entire life, currently north of 50 years, 39 of it with experience with unions, I've not seen an example of a positive force a union plays. Anywhere. Many people are in my position, many have seen the corruption, the violence, the rent seeking, etc. personally. > Same is true for any hierarchy or any democratic process. Power has a tendency to corrupt. This is why there must be competing forces for the power, each jealously guarding its interest. > Saying no one should unionize because some are corrupt is like saying countries are a bad idea because Putin rigs elections. This is a poor analogy. The two are not comparable. Also, I did not say "no one should unionize because some are corrupt". I said "unions are corrupt". There may be a vanishingly small number of counterexamples. But I have not personally encountered any. Putin is as Putin does. If he really invested $2M in the ads that no one saw on FB and TWTR, and that swayed the US election ... yeah, I'd be pissed. [1] https://www.varnumlaw.com/newsroom-publications-michigan-a-right-to-work-state https://www.varnumlaw.com/newsroom-publications-michigan-a-r... [2] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter15-5.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-... . Closed union shops can be ... closed union shops. [3] http://www.nrtw.org/union-discipline-and-employee-rights/ http://www.nrtw.org/union-discipline-and-employee-rights/ which details the purposefully misleading way many of these membership agreements, collective bargaining agreements, etc. were constructed, as well as the language and insinuations on the part of union officials to the workers.