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Wrong in most aspects. Right to work effectively ends most labor monopolies that unions have erected. By removing the monopolies, workers have far better choi

by hpcjoe 8y ago

Wrong in most aspects. Right to work effectively ends most labor monopolies that unions have erected. By removing the monopolies, workers have far better choices about whom to work for, and how to negotiate wages. Here's a simple example of the power of monopoly and oligarchy. The recent wage fixing kerfuffle over at google, apple, FB, and others resulting initially in depressed wages for workers. Upon breaking up that oligarchy, and putting those companies on notice ... what has happened to wages? If I believe the pro-union folks here, then they have fallen dramatically, and workers are at a disadvantage in negotiations. However, I believe in market economics, the invisible hand of the market, and see it in action here. Wages have risen dramatically, as the market distortion due to the oligarchy has been removed, and labor is free to discover its price. Had there been a union ... this would not have happened. You would have a floor and a ceiling. More productive workers would not seek to increase their wages by working harder, or switching companies. Demand would be distorted. If you want to be able to negotiate wages, you need leverage. Leverage in the form of a union is well understood, and has consequences for locales. Leverage in the form of demand (get multiple job offers, create a market making enterprise for selling your labor, select the highest/best offer).

Avshalom 8y ago
Those "labor monopolies" were negotiated voluntarily in environments that were already actively hostile to unions. Right to Work laws interfere with the right to association idea that libertarian capitalism champions as a absolute good.
- hpcjoe 8y ago
  Paraphrasing that economic philosopher Inigo Montoya ... You use that phrase "negotiated voluntarily" ... I do not think it means what you think it means. Right to work laws limit the power of unions to form labor monopolies, opening up the market for labor. You may form a union or not. You may join one, or not. But you can no longer coerce someone to pay dues/fees for something they do not wish to associate with. That is, fundamentally, the breaking of a monopoly over labor. Everyone has an inherent right to negotiate on their own if they so choose. Or not, they can join the union if they so choose. But they are no longer coerced into funding activity that they may not wish for on their own behalf. Right to work does exactly what it says on the label.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    "Right to work" makes it illegal for unions to form exclusivity contracts with businesses. That denies them the ability to freely form contracts that every other type of organization is allowed. If a business wants to hire people who aren't part of a union, then they shouldn't have signed a contract saying that they won't.
    - hpcjoe 8y ago
      This is incorrect. Right to work, prevents a monopoly on labor that a business must consume via a union, from using its power to preserve its monopoly. Previously, businesses, even if opposed in principle to a union forming, had little recourse but to deal with the labor monopoly once formed. NLRB specifically went after businesses opposed to union formation, or who wished to purchase labor on the free and open market. They had little choice in signing of the contracts. Blaming them for acquiescing to unreasonable demands in order to avoid further material harm ... isnt ... a win, for anyone. This specific action, that unions so happily crow about, costs employers more. Which drives them to look at investing in new sites where costs are lower, and automation. You are seeing exactly this in the rush to $15/hour areas.
Avshalom 8y ago
Also hold on a fucking second: you consider class action lawsuits against employers as some how not part of organized labor?
- hpcjoe 8y ago
  Language. The class action was done via antitrust mechanisms as I understand it[1][2][3]. If you want to assume that a class formation is a union, albeit a temporary one to effect good, I FULLY support that. This is how a union should work. It should come into being frictionlessly, and upon completion of its mission, or a specific timeout, it should be destroyed. Otherwise we get the rent seeking behavior, corruption, etc. which appears to be the normal for unions. [1] http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-job... [2] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po... [3] https://www.nexsenpruet.com/insights/criminal-antitrust-exposure-for-wage-fixing-and-no-poaching-agreements https://www.nexsenpruet.com/insights/criminal-antitrust-expo...
  - Avshalom 8y ago
    >>Language Fuck you, you violently anti human fucking fuck. >> It should come into being frictionlessly, and upon completion of its mission, or a specific timeout, it should be destroyed. So we should all just wait for years during which we're being fucked instead of noticing that this is something of a historic pattern and attempt to be pro-active?

by hpcjoe 8y ago

Avshalom 8y ago

Those "labor monopolies" were negotiated voluntarily in environments that were already actively hostile to unions. Right to Work laws interfere with the right to association idea that libertarian capitalism champions as a absolute good.

hpcjoe 8y ago
Paraphrasing that economic philosopher Inigo Montoya ... You use that phrase "negotiated voluntarily" ... I do not think it means what you think it means. Right to work laws limit the power of unions to form labor monopolies, opening up the market for labor. You may form a union or not. You may join one, or not. But you can no longer coerce someone to pay dues/fees for something they do not wish to associate with. That is, fundamentally, the breaking of a monopoly over labor. Everyone has an inherent right to negotiate on their own if they so choose. Or not, they can join the union if they so choose. But they are no longer coerced into funding activity that they may not wish for on their own behalf. Right to work does exactly what it says on the label.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  "Right to work" makes it illegal for unions to form exclusivity contracts with businesses. That denies them the ability to freely form contracts that every other type of organization is allowed. If a business wants to hire people who aren't part of a union, then they shouldn't have signed a contract saying that they won't.
  - hpcjoe 8y ago
    This is incorrect. Right to work, prevents a monopoly on labor that a business must consume via a union, from using its power to preserve its monopoly. Previously, businesses, even if opposed in principle to a union forming, had little recourse but to deal with the labor monopoly once formed. NLRB specifically went after businesses opposed to union formation, or who wished to purchase labor on the free and open market. They had little choice in signing of the contracts. Blaming them for acquiescing to unreasonable demands in order to avoid further material harm ... isnt ... a win, for anyone. This specific action, that unions so happily crow about, costs employers more. Which drives them to look at investing in new sites where costs are lower, and automation. You are seeing exactly this in the rush to $15/hour areas.

Avshalom 8y ago

Also hold on a fucking second: you consider class action lawsuits against employers as some how not part of organized labor?

hpcjoe 8y ago
Language. The class action was done via antitrust mechanisms as I understand it[1][2][3]. If you want to assume that a class formation is a union, albeit a temporary one to effect good, I FULLY support that. This is how a union should work. It should come into being frictionlessly, and upon completion of its mission, or a specific timeout, it should be destroyed. Otherwise we get the rent seeking behavior, corruption, etc. which appears to be the normal for unions. [1] http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-job... [2] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po... [3] https://www.nexsenpruet.com/insights/criminal-antitrust-exposure-for-wage-fixing-and-no-poaching-agreements https://www.nexsenpruet.com/insights/criminal-antitrust-expo...
- Avshalom 8y ago
  >>Language Fuck you, you violently anti human fucking fuck. >> It should come into being frictionlessly, and upon completion of its mission, or a specific timeout, it should be destroyed. So we should all just wait for years during which we're being fucked instead of noticing that this is something of a historic pattern and attempt to be pro-active?