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It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. It's a s

It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. It's a shame these tools keep being rewritten because there are definitely good ideas in all of them, but for some reason they can't seem to be unified.

Arnavion 8y ago
All these tools start off as simple alternatives to the existing bloated tools. Then as they gain more and more features to support real-world situations they end up becoming as bloated as the tools they set out to replace.
- royjacobs 8y ago
  Right. I'd just hope that at some point that cycle ends and people try to fix existing tools instead of replacing everything wholesale with something new that will eventually fail again.
  - Moru 8y ago
    Sorry, there is always a new developer thinking "I can do this much better if I just start from scratch, getting rid of all the bloat".
- mediumdeviation 8y ago
  Webpack and Gulp were never meant to be simpler alternatives. Gulp used streams instead of serially processing files like Grunt, which made it faster, but obviously streams working in parallel are more complex than just processing the files one by one. Webpack pulls dependencies into one file and deduplicates them. This is obviously even more complex since now you have dependency resolution logic as well as dealing with the various module systems JavaScript has invented.
panopticon 8y ago
> It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity and customizability (and probably more important for longevity, library buy-in). It doesn't seem like anything on the horizon is going to unseat it anytime soon... certainly not Brunch.
- pknopf 8y ago
  > While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity I don't know, I thought the same thing about Browserify. And now Parcel is here, gaining steam...
pknopf 8y ago
> usurped by something like Brunch I've been out of Node for like 6 months, wth happened! I give up!!
- chrisco255 8y ago
  Brunch is not usurping Webpack. But these are tools built on top of Node.js. They're for front end development, and have nothing to do with running a Node.js server on the backend.
- spiralx 8y ago
  Brunch was between Gulp and Webpack, so don't worry! And since Webpack there's only been Rollup and Parcel to consider :)
yen223 8y ago
Somewhere along the line, we as developers have abandoned the Unix philosophy, especially the oft-forgotten second part ("Write programs that do one thing, and one thing well; and write programs that work well together"). Without the ability to compose multiple small libraries to form the exact solution that we need, we had little choice but to rely on the One True Framework to solve every problem that we will have. This means if the One True Framework doesn't serve the exact need you have (and it almost definitely won't, there's a combinatorial number of requirements out there), it's time for a rewrite!
- zzbzq 8y ago
  NPM is the closest environment to the Unix philosophy apart from Linux. Lots of small packages instead of a large base class library like all the other language ecosystems. The thing is, even with Linux distros, most of the stuff you want is built-in by the distro. Once you start to add your own stuff, it can get really ugly and you have to be really pro to get anything done. It seems like every time I'm working on updating a Linux image I have to do some really bizarre thing where the package manager doesn't even work right and the instructions or some forum have me doing some mind-blowing workarounds I don't even understand. So I think you are combining two different topics. I am all-in for libraries over frameworks. But the larger, more heavily curated libraries where you only need minimal customization are just objectively better. Having a large, curated standard library != a framework.

Arnavion 8y ago

All these tools start off as simple alternatives to the existing bloated tools. Then as they gain more and more features to support real-world situations they end up becoming as bloated as the tools they set out to replace.

royjacobs 8y ago
Right. I'd just hope that at some point that cycle ends and people try to fix existing tools instead of replacing everything wholesale with something new that will eventually fail again.
- Moru 8y ago
  Sorry, there is always a new developer thinking "I can do this much better if I just start from scratch, getting rid of all the bloat".
mediumdeviation 8y ago
Webpack and Gulp were never meant to be simpler alternatives. Gulp used streams instead of serially processing files like Grunt, which made it faster, but obviously streams working in parallel are more complex than just processing the files one by one. Webpack pulls dependencies into one file and deduplicates them. This is obviously even more complex since now you have dependency resolution logic as well as dealing with the various module systems JavaScript has invented.

panopticon 8y ago

> It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity and customizability (and probably more important for longevity, library buy-in). It doesn't seem like anything on the horizon is going to unseat it anytime soon... certainly not Brunch.

pknopf 8y ago
> While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity I don't know, I thought the same thing about Browserify. And now Parcel is here, gaining steam...

pknopf 8y ago

> usurped by something like Brunch I've been out of Node for like 6 months, wth happened! I give up!!

chrisco255 8y ago
Brunch is not usurping Webpack. But these are tools built on top of Node.js. They're for front end development, and have nothing to do with running a Node.js server on the backend.
spiralx 8y ago
Brunch was between Gulp and Webpack, so don't worry! And since Webpack there's only been Rollup and Parcel to consider :)

yen223 8y ago

Somewhere along the line, we as developers have abandoned the Unix philosophy, especially the oft-forgotten second part ("Write programs that do one thing, and one thing well; and write programs that work well together"). Without the ability to compose multiple small libraries to form the exact solution that we need, we had little choice but to rely on the One True Framework to solve every problem that we will have. This means if the One True Framework doesn't serve the exact need you have (and it almost definitely won't, there's a combinatorial number of requirements out there), it's time for a rewrite!

zzbzq 8y ago
NPM is the closest environment to the Unix philosophy apart from Linux. Lots of small packages instead of a large base class library like all the other language ecosystems. The thing is, even with Linux distros, most of the stuff you want is built-in by the distro. Once you start to add your own stuff, it can get really ugly and you have to be really pro to get anything done. It seems like every time I'm working on updating a Linux image I have to do some really bizarre thing where the package manager doesn't even work right and the instructions or some forum have me doing some mind-blowing workarounds I don't even understand. So I think you are combining two different topics. I am all-in for libraries over frameworks. But the larger, more heavily curated libraries where you only need minimal customization are just objectively better. Having a large, curated standard library != a framework.