7 ms·

You're blaming facebook because people don't read ToS? And then you try to tell people to be reasonable? That's like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it

You're blaming facebook because people don't read ToS? And then you try to tell people to be reasonable? That's like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

jkaplowitz 8y ago
In many countries, like Germany, surprising provisions in consumer terms of service are unenforceable for exactly this reason (and other reasons). In my opinion, it's American over-adherence to legal formalism to the benefit of powerful companies and the detriment of consumers that is unreasonable, not the German approach. And I say this as an American myself.
- gowld 8y ago
  USA has very similar laws and legal tradition about what makes a contract valid.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    The German (civil law) and US (common law) legal traditions are pretty disparate, including their approaches to contract law - but in this case the difference is due to consumer protection rules in Germany and Europe, not anything longstanding about either tradition.
    - weber111 8y ago
      I know very little about US law and even less about German law, but I think GP was referring to contracts of adhesion, which are less enforceable in the US too, afaik; even if the laws are far stronger in Germany and have different historical origins, maybe there's at least some spiritual similarity between the protections?
      - jkaplowitz 8y ago
        While it's true that contracts of adhesion are less enforceable in the US than other contracts, they're still very enforceable. In particular, if there's some evidence that a consumer clicked a check box saying "I accept the terms of service" on a web form before submitting it, where a link to the full terms of service was offered and the check box was not checked by default, US courts will uphold far less friendly terms than German courts will.
mkirklions 8y ago
Hey do you read the ToS? Before you get too excited about legal jargon, no one reads the ToS. There was some study saying it would take years of your life to read it, let alone try to understand it. ToS that are unreadable should be thrown out in court. Everyone, including facebook knows that these are not read.

You're blaming facebook because people don't read ToS? And then you try to tell people to be reasonable? That's like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

jkaplowitz 8y ago

In many countries, like Germany, surprising provisions in consumer terms of service are unenforceable for exactly this reason (and other reasons). In my opinion, it's American over-adherence to legal formalism to the benefit of powerful companies and the detriment of consumers that is unreasonable, not the German approach. And I say this as an American myself.

gowld 8y ago
USA has very similar laws and legal tradition about what makes a contract valid.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  The German (civil law) and US (common law) legal traditions are pretty disparate, including their approaches to contract law - but in this case the difference is due to consumer protection rules in Germany and Europe, not anything longstanding about either tradition.
  - weber111 8y ago
    I know very little about US law and even less about German law, but I think GP was referring to contracts of adhesion, which are less enforceable in the US too, afaik; even if the laws are far stronger in Germany and have different historical origins, maybe there's at least some spiritual similarity between the protections?
    - jkaplowitz 8y ago
      While it's true that contracts of adhesion are less enforceable in the US than other contracts, they're still very enforceable. In particular, if there's some evidence that a consumer clicked a check box saying "I accept the terms of service" on a web form before submitting it, where a link to the full terms of service was offered and the check box was not checked by default, US courts will uphold far less friendly terms than German courts will.

mkirklions 8y ago

Hey do you read the ToS? Before you get too excited about legal jargon, no one reads the ToS. There was some study saying it would take years of your life to read it, let alone try to understand it. ToS that are unreadable should be thrown out in court. Everyone, including facebook knows that these are not read.