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for some reason i haven't seen many people discuss china as a totalitarian country. but is there really any doubt, at this point? the government seeks to contr

for some reason i haven't seen many people discuss china as a totalitarian country. but is there really any doubt, at this point? the government seeks to control an ever-greater range of human behaviors, from the banal -- like borrowing an umbrella -- to the political. it's unclear to me whether the chinese people want this sort of system for whatever reason or whether it's being forced onto them. what is clear to me is that this system would warrant a prompt and violent revolution if a similar implementation was attempted here. once these systems take root, become normalized, and start to change the way that people behave, a society's chance at freedom is finished...

bena 8y ago
Aren't there like four different Chinas? You have the modern mainland, which is where all these problems exist, the rural mainland which this probably doesn't affect as much, Hong Kong which is autonomous, and Chinese Taipei which might as well give up the ghost by this point.
- Simulacra 8y ago
  Chinese Taipei is Taiwan, an independent nation. As much as China would like to claim otherwise, Taiwan is not China.
  - bena 8y ago
    They claim to be China though. The ROC see themselves as the legitimate government in exile. Both the PRC and the ROC believe in "One China", they just disagree as to who is the "real" China.
    - Simulacra 8y ago
      That is true, so then if Taiwan sees itself as the official government in exile, then wouldn't that mean China proper is an extension of Taiwan, and not the other way around? :)
nfoz 8y ago
> it's unclear to me whether the chinese people want this sort of system for whatever reason or whether it's being forced onto them. These become indistinguishable by "manufacturing consent".
- plankers 8y ago
  The groupthink is quite strong in China. If you agree with the policies of the government, you get to live happily in society. If not, you're gonna have a bad time. It doesn't take a genius to decide that you'd be better off consenting, whether that consent has been manufactured or outright enforced.
oculusthrift 8y ago
The chinese accept their authoritarian regime simply because of the immense economic growth they’ve had over the past few decades. Not long ago they were starving under Mao. No one revolts under good times and risks going back to starvation.
pishpash 8y ago
The unit of account is different. Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia and paternalistic societies have been around forever to enforce group norms. Different values for different folks. Some people are happy to live in conservative, stable, conformist, and low-risk societies (whether because they are brought up in such or not, though usually the former). Some people are not.
- superhuzza 8y ago
  "Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia" Where in society does 'untethered individual freedom' exist? I live in Canada, a very 'free' country, yet there are many rules and laws to follow. Enough that I probably break the law multiple times per day.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia It's an old argument used by dictators to justify their repression: 'Individual freedom isn't our value; it's a Western thing.' But these are inalienable universal rights, not some cultural preference. If people want to live as the Chinese Communist Party says or in some other way, they have a right to the freedom, the self-determination, to make that choice. The quote above is also obviously false. East Asia has free countries including Japan and South Korea. China has free regions, including Taiwan and, to an extent, Hong Kong. (Not coincidentally, these are by far the most prosperous political entities in East Asia.) The people of Taiwan and Hong Kong seem less than excited about giving up their freedom. Cultures all over the world implement and embrace these values, from East Asia to South Asia to Europe to almost all of the Americas. The only ones who don't are those who aren't given a choice.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have put down roots as deep or deeper than Lutheran and Calvanist ideals in the west. It's a mistake to discount history.
gowld 8y ago
Washington Post has been hammering that nail intensely: https://www.google.com/search?q=china+totalitarian https://www.google.com/search?q=china+totalitarian Perhaps others have not, considering the Post's dominance of the Google front page. https://www.quora.com/Is-China-a-totalitarian-state https://www.quora.com/Is-China-a-totalitarian-state makes a good point: > Authoritarian yes. Totalitarian, no. > The difference between authoritarian and totalitarian is that in an authoritarian state, what is not banned is allowed. In a totalitarian one, what is not banned is required. and that China is so much better than it was in the 1950s, that is deserves a better evaluation. Still, from the perspective of a mostly-free society, the distinctions between Authoritarian and Totalitarian are blurred.
reaperducer 8y ago
but is there really any doubt, at this point? There's never been any doubt among people who know China's recent history.[0] The problem is that for the most part, Americans under 30 or so don't know about it. They are frequently confused when I remind them that China is communist. They grew up thinking of it as just another country, but with a slightly different government system. Like Germany or Japan. If you tell them that the Chinese government murdered millions of its own people, they're dumbfounded until they, themselves, look it up. The path that China is taking isn't a surprise to most older people (including diplomats and politicians). And it's why China is working so hard to whitewash its global repuration where it can, or attempt to erase history, where it's able. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

bena 8y ago

Aren't there like four different Chinas? You have the modern mainland, which is where all these problems exist, the rural mainland which this probably doesn't affect as much, Hong Kong which is autonomous, and Chinese Taipei which might as well give up the ghost by this point.

Simulacra 8y ago
Chinese Taipei is Taiwan, an independent nation. As much as China would like to claim otherwise, Taiwan is not China.
- bena 8y ago
  They claim to be China though. The ROC see themselves as the legitimate government in exile. Both the PRC and the ROC believe in "One China", they just disagree as to who is the "real" China.
  - Simulacra 8y ago
    That is true, so then if Taiwan sees itself as the official government in exile, then wouldn't that mean China proper is an extension of Taiwan, and not the other way around? :)

nfoz 8y ago

> it's unclear to me whether the chinese people want this sort of system for whatever reason or whether it's being forced onto them. These become indistinguishable by "manufacturing consent".

plankers 8y ago
The groupthink is quite strong in China. If you agree with the policies of the government, you get to live happily in society. If not, you're gonna have a bad time. It doesn't take a genius to decide that you'd be better off consenting, whether that consent has been manufactured or outright enforced.

oculusthrift 8y ago

The chinese accept their authoritarian regime simply because of the immense economic growth they’ve had over the past few decades. Not long ago they were starving under Mao. No one revolts under good times and risks going back to starvation.

pishpash 8y ago

The unit of account is different. Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia and paternalistic societies have been around forever to enforce group norms. Different values for different folks. Some people are happy to live in conservative, stable, conformist, and low-risk societies (whether because they are brought up in such or not, though usually the former). Some people are not.

superhuzza 8y ago
"Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia" Where in society does 'untethered individual freedom' exist? I live in Canada, a very 'free' country, yet there are many rules and laws to follow. Enough that I probably break the law multiple times per day.
forapurpose 8y ago
> Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia It's an old argument used by dictators to justify their repression: 'Individual freedom isn't our value; it's a Western thing.' But these are inalienable universal rights, not some cultural preference. If people want to live as the Chinese Communist Party says or in some other way, they have a right to the freedom, the self-determination, to make that choice. The quote above is also obviously false. East Asia has free countries including Japan and South Korea. China has free regions, including Taiwan and, to an extent, Hong Kong. (Not coincidentally, these are by far the most prosperous political entities in East Asia.) The people of Taiwan and Hong Kong seem less than excited about giving up their freedom. Cultures all over the world implement and embrace these values, from East Asia to South Asia to Europe to almost all of the Americas. The only ones who don't are those who aren't given a choice.
- megaman22 8y ago
  Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have put down roots as deep or deeper than Lutheran and Calvanist ideals in the west. It's a mistake to discount history.

gowld 8y ago

Washington Post has been hammering that nail intensely: https://www.google.com/search?q=china+totalitarian https://www.google.com/search?q=china+totalitarian Perhaps others have not, considering the Post's dominance of the Google front page. https://www.quora.com/Is-China-a-totalitarian-state https://www.quora.com/Is-China-a-totalitarian-state makes a good point: > Authoritarian yes. Totalitarian, no. > The difference between authoritarian and totalitarian is that in an authoritarian state, what is not banned is allowed. In a totalitarian one, what is not banned is required. and that China is so much better than it was in the 1950s, that is deserves a better evaluation. Still, from the perspective of a mostly-free society, the distinctions between Authoritarian and Totalitarian are blurred.

reaperducer 8y ago

but is there really any doubt, at this point? There's never been any doubt among people who know China's recent history.[0] The problem is that for the most part, Americans under 30 or so don't know about it. They are frequently confused when I remind them that China is communist. They grew up thinking of it as just another country, but with a slightly different government system. Like Germany or Japan. If you tell them that the Chinese government murdered millions of its own people, they're dumbfounded until they, themselves, look it up. The path that China is taking isn't a surprise to most older people (including diplomats and politicians). And it's why China is working so hard to whitewash its global repuration where it can, or attempt to erase history, where it's able. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution