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> This was likely inspired by an event preceding the Nanking Massacre There is about no likelihood that Tolkien heard about a despicable war crime committed by

by jack6e 8y ago

> This was likely inspired by an event preceding the Nanking Massacre There is about no likelihood that Tolkien heard about a despicable war crime committed by an Axis power, involving an evil, flagrant disregard for human life, and decided to use that as material for two of his "good" characters. Nothing in Tolkien's works, worldview, or influences aligns with that sort of thought. This is the author who despised German publishers inquiring about his Aryan descent, even though, being of German heritage and a prominent scholar of Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Germanic literature, Tolkien could have perfectly flattered the Nazi mythology [0]. But in your opinion, while hating Hitler and the Nazis for treating Jews as second-class citizens (in 1938, when the persecution was not yet elevated to mass execution), he simultaneously decided, "well, this Japanese massacre of innocent civilians sounds like a fun bit of material, I'll use that"? More realistically, the influence, as most of his influences, is in Anglo-Saxon and Norse literature, where accounts and songs of battles often make them appear almost like sport, with contests and even gamification. I suppose that is one method of mentally bracing oneself for such a horrifying activity, and for attempting to process the event afterwards. It is part of a common mindset of soldiers at war, one that even the Japanese murderers were engaging, albeit in a perverted misuse. In that view, both Tolkien and the Japanese were drawing from a (very) distantly related source, but much different in purpose, and certainly neither influenced by the other. [0] https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolkien-telling-off-nazis-absolutely-nothing https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolk...

ConceptJunkie 8y ago
Thanks for setting the record straight in much more detail than I could have. Tolkien was a deeply moral man and his morals infused his works.
davidy123 8y ago
OK, I was wrong about the very specific influence. But it's ultimately the same thing; flatten the idea of the enemy to make a sport of killing reasonable, and more entertaining stories. That may be an appropriate thing to do in the most dire circumstances, but it's still a disturbing moral choice given that "evil" most often has to be invented.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  Remember that he fought in a war where it was Democracy vs Dictatorship. It was very much a good vs evil feeling at the time. You can look at propaganda pieces of the time.
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    Tolkien was not of the opinion that war propaganda represented absolute truth. Here's an example of his thought on WWII: > I have just heard the news. Russians 60 miles from Berlin. It does look as if something decisive might happen soon. The appalling destruction and misery of this war mount hourly : destruction of what should be (indeed is) the common wealth of Europe, and the world, if mankind were not so besotted, wealth the loss of which will affect us all, victors or not. Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination, left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilization in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world-catastrophes. Well, well – you and I can do nothing about it. And that shd. be a measure of the amount of guilt that can justly be assumed to attach to any member of a country who is not a member of its actual Government. Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-christopher-tolkien.html http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-chris... If you read his full letters, you will discover that davidy's ideas about what Tolkien thought, and what he represented in LotR, are tremendously wrongheaded.
    - davidy123 8y ago
      I haven't said anything about what Tolkien thought or his wartime experiences. What I have commented on is his fantasy stories and similar types of story, which are staples for some audiences (and in this case apparently beyond reproach). They are separate things. Tolkien may have been a great, balanced humanist in his letters, but his stories are about good and evil, surviving grim circumstances, glorious battles and magical kingdoms. It's very likely his books were moderated by his publisher, who would specifically ask that nuance be removed. There are plenty of examples of nuanced war stories, with more consideration and without requiring the use of "evil," for example by Kurt Vonnegut or Joseph Heller. But the path of reading those books starts in adulthood.

by jack6e 8y ago

ConceptJunkie 8y ago

Thanks for setting the record straight in much more detail than I could have. Tolkien was a deeply moral man and his morals infused his works.

davidy123 8y ago

OK, I was wrong about the very specific influence. But it's ultimately the same thing; flatten the idea of the enemy to make a sport of killing reasonable, and more entertaining stories. That may be an appropriate thing to do in the most dire circumstances, but it's still a disturbing moral choice given that "evil" most often has to be invented.

mkirklions 8y ago
Remember that he fought in a war where it was Democracy vs Dictatorship. It was very much a good vs evil feeling at the time. You can look at propaganda pieces of the time.
- Amezarak 8y ago
  Tolkien was not of the opinion that war propaganda represented absolute truth. Here's an example of his thought on WWII: > I have just heard the news. Russians 60 miles from Berlin. It does look as if something decisive might happen soon. The appalling destruction and misery of this war mount hourly : destruction of what should be (indeed is) the common wealth of Europe, and the world, if mankind were not so besotted, wealth the loss of which will affect us all, victors or not. Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination, left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilization in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world-catastrophes. Well, well – you and I can do nothing about it. And that shd. be a measure of the amount of guilt that can justly be assumed to attach to any member of a country who is not a member of its actual Government. Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-christopher-tolkien.html http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-chris... If you read his full letters, you will discover that davidy's ideas about what Tolkien thought, and what he represented in LotR, are tremendously wrongheaded.
  - davidy123 8y ago
    I haven't said anything about what Tolkien thought or his wartime experiences. What I have commented on is his fantasy stories and similar types of story, which are staples for some audiences (and in this case apparently beyond reproach). They are separate things. Tolkien may have been a great, balanced humanist in his letters, but his stories are about good and evil, surviving grim circumstances, glorious battles and magical kingdoms. It's very likely his books were moderated by his publisher, who would specifically ask that nuance be removed. There are plenty of examples of nuanced war stories, with more consideration and without requiring the use of "evil," for example by Kurt Vonnegut or Joseph Heller. But the path of reading those books starts in adulthood.