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When I was growing up, Tolkien's works were some of the few books sold in the church's bookstore. As I've grown older, I've grown more critical of the simple na

When I was growing up, Tolkien's works were some of the few books sold in the church's bookstore. As I've grown older, I've grown more critical of the simple narratives in most literature, that make frequently abhorrent attitudes and acts possible. In the case of Tolkien, he literally dehumanizes the enemies. One example that stands out is the "light hearted" sequence where Legolas and Gimli hold a contest of who can kill the most orcs. These days, recognizing this type of storytelling, with all its justifications, is very often part of the problem, I try to find works that help develop more nuanced perspectives. Edited to remove bad reference to Nanking Massacre. The point is that glorious battle stories with simple morals are prevalent, and are a big part of Tolkein's stature.

Amezarak 8y ago
I very much doubt that Tolkien was looking for inspiration in Japanese newspaper articles. According to your own link, the event wasn't widely known even in Japan until the 1960s, after the Lord of the Rings was written. It seems more likely that Tolkien was drawing on much older (thousands of years) stories about the same thing.
deleted 8y ago
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jack6e 8y ago
> This was likely inspired by an event preceding the Nanking Massacre There is about no likelihood that Tolkien heard about a despicable war crime committed by an Axis power, involving an evil, flagrant disregard for human life, and decided to use that as material for two of his "good" characters. Nothing in Tolkien's works, worldview, or influences aligns with that sort of thought. This is the author who despised German publishers inquiring about his Aryan descent, even though, being of German heritage and a prominent scholar of Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Germanic literature, Tolkien could have perfectly flattered the Nazi mythology [0]. But in your opinion, while hating Hitler and the Nazis for treating Jews as second-class citizens (in 1938, when the persecution was not yet elevated to mass execution), he simultaneously decided, "well, this Japanese massacre of innocent civilians sounds like a fun bit of material, I'll use that"? More realistically, the influence, as most of his influences, is in Anglo-Saxon and Norse literature, where accounts and songs of battles often make them appear almost like sport, with contests and even gamification. I suppose that is one method of mentally bracing oneself for such a horrifying activity, and for attempting to process the event afterwards. It is part of a common mindset of soldiers at war, one that even the Japanese murderers were engaging, albeit in a perverted misuse. In that view, both Tolkien and the Japanese were drawing from a (very) distantly related source, but much different in purpose, and certainly neither influenced by the other. [0] https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolkien-telling-off-nazis-absolutely-nothing https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolk...
- ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  Thanks for setting the record straight in much more detail than I could have. Tolkien was a deeply moral man and his morals infused his works.
- davidy123 8y ago
  OK, I was wrong about the very specific influence. But it's ultimately the same thing; flatten the idea of the enemy to make a sport of killing reasonable, and more entertaining stories. That may be an appropriate thing to do in the most dire circumstances, but it's still a disturbing moral choice given that "evil" most often has to be invented.
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    Remember that he fought in a war where it was Democracy vs Dictatorship. It was very much a good vs evil feeling at the time. You can look at propaganda pieces of the time.
    - Amezarak 8y ago
      Tolkien was not of the opinion that war propaganda represented absolute truth. Here's an example of his thought on WWII: > I have just heard the news. Russians 60 miles from Berlin. It does look as if something decisive might happen soon. The appalling destruction and misery of this war mount hourly : destruction of what should be (indeed is) the common wealth of Europe, and the world, if mankind were not so besotted, wealth the loss of which will affect us all, victors or not. Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination, left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilization in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world-catastrophes. Well, well – you and I can do nothing about it. And that shd. be a measure of the amount of guilt that can justly be assumed to attach to any member of a country who is not a member of its actual Government. Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-christopher-tolkien.html http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-chris... If you read his full letters, you will discover that davidy's ideas about what Tolkien thought, and what he represented in LotR, are tremendously wrongheaded.
j-c-hewitt 8y ago
Famous Japanese author J.R.R. Tolkien was known to laugh hysterically as he tortured innocent Koreans, Chinese, and American POWs in between writing passages from Lord of the Rings. Never let your ignorance get in the way of your righteousness, friend.
- ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
  Just letting you know if you want to turn that paragraph into a whole Alt-Reality Fan Fiction..., I would happily support you on Patreon to read more of that.

Amezarak 8y ago

I very much doubt that Tolkien was looking for inspiration in Japanese newspaper articles. According to your own link, the event wasn't widely known even in Japan until the 1960s, after the Lord of the Rings was written. It seems more likely that Tolkien was drawing on much older (thousands of years) stories about the same thing.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jack6e 8y ago

> This was likely inspired by an event preceding the Nanking Massacre There is about no likelihood that Tolkien heard about a despicable war crime committed by an Axis power, involving an evil, flagrant disregard for human life, and decided to use that as material for two of his "good" characters. Nothing in Tolkien's works, worldview, or influences aligns with that sort of thought. This is the author who despised German publishers inquiring about his Aryan descent, even though, being of German heritage and a prominent scholar of Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Germanic literature, Tolkien could have perfectly flattered the Nazi mythology [0]. But in your opinion, while hating Hitler and the Nazis for treating Jews as second-class citizens (in 1938, when the persecution was not yet elevated to mass execution), he simultaneously decided, "well, this Japanese massacre of innocent civilians sounds like a fun bit of material, I'll use that"? More realistically, the influence, as most of his influences, is in Anglo-Saxon and Norse literature, where accounts and songs of battles often make them appear almost like sport, with contests and even gamification. I suppose that is one method of mentally bracing oneself for such a horrifying activity, and for attempting to process the event afterwards. It is part of a common mindset of soldiers at war, one that even the Japanese murderers were engaging, albeit in a perverted misuse. In that view, both Tolkien and the Japanese were drawing from a (very) distantly related source, but much different in purpose, and certainly neither influenced by the other. [0] https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolkien-telling-off-nazis-absolutely-nothing https://io9.gizmodo.com/5892697/whats-classier-than-jrr-tolk...

ConceptJunkie 8y ago
Thanks for setting the record straight in much more detail than I could have. Tolkien was a deeply moral man and his morals infused his works.
davidy123 8y ago
OK, I was wrong about the very specific influence. But it's ultimately the same thing; flatten the idea of the enemy to make a sport of killing reasonable, and more entertaining stories. That may be an appropriate thing to do in the most dire circumstances, but it's still a disturbing moral choice given that "evil" most often has to be invented.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  Remember that he fought in a war where it was Democracy vs Dictatorship. It was very much a good vs evil feeling at the time. You can look at propaganda pieces of the time.
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    Tolkien was not of the opinion that war propaganda represented absolute truth. Here's an example of his thought on WWII: > I have just heard the news. Russians 60 miles from Berlin. It does look as if something decisive might happen soon. The appalling destruction and misery of this war mount hourly : destruction of what should be (indeed is) the common wealth of Europe, and the world, if mankind were not so besotted, wealth the loss of which will affect us all, victors or not. Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination, left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilization in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world-catastrophes. Well, well – you and I can do nothing about it. And that shd. be a measure of the amount of guilt that can justly be assumed to attach to any member of a country who is not a member of its actual Government. Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-christopher-tolkien.html http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-chris... If you read his full letters, you will discover that davidy's ideas about what Tolkien thought, and what he represented in LotR, are tremendously wrongheaded.

j-c-hewitt 8y ago

Famous Japanese author J.R.R. Tolkien was known to laugh hysterically as he tortured innocent Koreans, Chinese, and American POWs in between writing passages from Lord of the Rings. Never let your ignorance get in the way of your righteousness, friend.

ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
Just letting you know if you want to turn that paragraph into a whole Alt-Reality Fan Fiction..., I would happily support you on Patreon to read more of that.