4 ms·

> In 2017, mental illness played a role in a quarter of 987 police killings, Can we say that police officers kill more people than terrorists do?

daten 8y ago
That's a very vague anecdote. If someone affected by mental illness is prepared to harm themselves or others in the process, including "mass shooters", then police being prepared to respond in a way that minimizes overall harm may be appropriate. Saying it "played a role" in 25% of a number of killings, could easily include a set of completely unrelated types of situations and mental illnesses. It also doesn't begin to describe how many lives may have been saved in each of those situations, or countless others that didn't involve "killings". Finally, do you have any idea how many deaths, people we can reasonably call "terrorists", are responsible for throughout the world? Including conflicts throughout the middle east with nearly daily bombings? Or are you only counting a few high-profile incidents in the United States?
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  > Or are you only counting a few high-profile incidents in the United States? Though I tentatively agree with the rest of your comment, the original comparison was to stats only in America.
- sbjustin 8y ago
  Didn't read your comment first. I completely agree with you here.
RoyTyrell 8y ago
I would be surprised if terrorists killed more people. That isn't to say that terrorism should be taken lightly because they could get "lucky" and kill lots of people. While a scary issue, due to the proximity of the US (minus local terrorists like the alt-right groups) we are largely shielded from it. Hell drunk drivers kill passengers and those in other vehicles every year far more than terrorism has minus in 2001. I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop".
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Even including 2001 the drunk drivers are winning by a factor of about 3. September 11 2001 terrorist attacks: 2,996 dead.[1] Here's some data for the previous few years[2], and 2016: In 2016, 10,497 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for 28% of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.[3] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11... 2. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812350 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... 3 . https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impa...
  - candu 8y ago
    xkcd, "Driving Cars": https://xkcd.com/1990/ https://xkcd.com/1990/
- bigiain 8y ago
  > I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop". That wouldn't even be a thing if they weren't so trigger happy and unaccountable. How did it ever even get to be a thing?
  - Shivetya 8y ago
    Television and in some movies. don't under estimate the influence that has on some who want to harm themselves but lack the conviction to do themselves in without harming others. The idea that cops are trigger happy is ignorant, if that were even remotely true the number of shootings and deaths by cop would be so high as to not warrant news stories. As in, it would be common place. Fortunately we are far from it being commonplace that shootings and even weapon discharges by cops are news worthy. Yes we have bad cops just like we have bad actors in many other occupations. The difference is that we don't put people in other occupations in harms way on a day to day basis. that isn't to say being a cop is the most hazardous job you can have, work place deaths are higher for many other fields. We also cannot say that cops cause an unreasonable number of deaths by their actions, if anything we need to account for all the deaths they prevent by their training and mere presence.
sbjustin 8y ago
Not quite sure what the implication here. I'm very confident that every one of those police officers lives with that horror every single day. While I completely agree that mental health should be treated better and have more options available; you can never know if the person just wants to harm themselves or take the officer down too.
influx 8y ago
https://healthresearchfunding.org/surprising-suicide-cop-statistics/ https://healthresearchfunding.org/surprising-suicide-cop-sta... It is absurd to leave out the fact that many of these killings were intentionally initiated by suicidal mentally ill people.
- Zigurd 8y ago
  It's not absurd if you compare outcomes to other industrialized nations.
IanDrake 8y ago
“Why” is far more important than how many.
CWuestefeld 8y ago
We can also say that the police steal more from people than non-sanctioned thieves do. In 2014, for the first time ever, law enforcement officers took more property from American citizens than burglars did. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/?utm_term=.7f67e8128782 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Your description of the facts in the article is sloppy. Law enforcement seized more than burglars stole. Throw in other theft crimes and crime wins. And if you take out the Madoff case (a $1.7 billion case of law enforcement run amuck if there ever was one...), seizures didn't even top out burglaries. Of course now someone can shrilly denounce me for defending asset forfeiture, but that isn't my point.

daten 8y ago

That's a very vague anecdote. If someone affected by mental illness is prepared to harm themselves or others in the process, including "mass shooters", then police being prepared to respond in a way that minimizes overall harm may be appropriate. Saying it "played a role" in 25% of a number of killings, could easily include a set of completely unrelated types of situations and mental illnesses. It also doesn't begin to describe how many lives may have been saved in each of those situations, or countless others that didn't involve "killings". Finally, do you have any idea how many deaths, people we can reasonably call "terrorists", are responsible for throughout the world? Including conflicts throughout the middle east with nearly daily bombings? Or are you only counting a few high-profile incidents in the United States?

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
> Or are you only counting a few high-profile incidents in the United States? Though I tentatively agree with the rest of your comment, the original comparison was to stats only in America.
sbjustin 8y ago
Didn't read your comment first. I completely agree with you here.

RoyTyrell 8y ago

I would be surprised if terrorists killed more people. That isn't to say that terrorism should be taken lightly because they could get "lucky" and kill lots of people. While a scary issue, due to the proximity of the US (minus local terrorists like the alt-right groups) we are largely shielded from it. Hell drunk drivers kill passengers and those in other vehicles every year far more than terrorism has minus in 2001. I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop".

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Even including 2001 the drunk drivers are winning by a factor of about 3. September 11 2001 terrorist attacks: 2,996 dead.[1] Here's some data for the previous few years[2], and 2016: In 2016, 10,497 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for 28% of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.[3] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11... 2. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812350 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... 3 . https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impa...
- candu 8y ago
  xkcd, "Driving Cars": https://xkcd.com/1990/ https://xkcd.com/1990/
bigiain 8y ago
> I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop". That wouldn't even be a thing if they weren't so trigger happy and unaccountable. How did it ever even get to be a thing?
- Shivetya 8y ago
  Television and in some movies. don't under estimate the influence that has on some who want to harm themselves but lack the conviction to do themselves in without harming others. The idea that cops are trigger happy is ignorant, if that were even remotely true the number of shootings and deaths by cop would be so high as to not warrant news stories. As in, it would be common place. Fortunately we are far from it being commonplace that shootings and even weapon discharges by cops are news worthy. Yes we have bad cops just like we have bad actors in many other occupations. The difference is that we don't put people in other occupations in harms way on a day to day basis. that isn't to say being a cop is the most hazardous job you can have, work place deaths are higher for many other fields. We also cannot say that cops cause an unreasonable number of deaths by their actions, if anything we need to account for all the deaths they prevent by their training and mere presence.

sbjustin 8y ago

Not quite sure what the implication here. I'm very confident that every one of those police officers lives with that horror every single day. While I completely agree that mental health should be treated better and have more options available; you can never know if the person just wants to harm themselves or take the officer down too.

influx 8y ago

https://healthresearchfunding.org/surprising-suicide-cop-statistics/ https://healthresearchfunding.org/surprising-suicide-cop-sta... It is absurd to leave out the fact that many of these killings were intentionally initiated by suicidal mentally ill people.

Zigurd 8y ago
It's not absurd if you compare outcomes to other industrialized nations.

IanDrake 8y ago

“Why” is far more important than how many.

CWuestefeld 8y ago

We can also say that the police steal more from people than non-sanctioned thieves do. In 2014, for the first time ever, law enforcement officers took more property from American citizens than burglars did. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/?utm_term=.7f67e8128782 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...

maxerickson 8y ago
Your description of the facts in the article is sloppy. Law enforcement seized more than burglars stole. Throw in other theft crimes and crime wins. And if you take out the Madoff case (a $1.7 billion case of law enforcement run amuck if there ever was one...), seizures didn't even top out burglaries. Of course now someone can shrilly denounce me for defending asset forfeiture, but that isn't my point.