5 ms·

>> people shouldn't buy phones from the manufacturers they don't trust. You're literally hosting your life on it. You should indeed not do this.

Hydraulix989 8y ago
There aren't a whole lot of (i.e. _any_) good actors because the market does not incentivize them. You can't rely on capitalism to resolve the Prisoner's Dilemma here. This is why Right to Repair legislation has become necessary, for example.
- runesoerensen 8y ago
  > There aren't a whole lot of (i.e. _any_) good actors because the market does not incentivize them Apple is a pretty good actor in this regard though, and they're clearly betting a lot on markets to realize the attractiveness of that. > This is why Right to Repair legislation has become necessary, for example. I'm not sure I see how a "bad" actor (maybe like Apple) in terms of the Right to Repair is relevant in the context of trusting device manufacturers. If anything I think Apple's (somewhat self-serving albeit not completely detached from reality) argument would be, and has been e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11047359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11047359, that their control of device repairs and servicing decreases the risk of malicious software or hardware components being installed.
  - TheForumTroll 8y ago
    Apple is not a "Pretty good actor". Better than some, yes, but good? No.
    - ladzoppelin 8y ago
      Honestly, Apple's privacy move over the years is genius. Its going to be a long time, maybe never, before I buy something besides an iPhone. I don't even like Phones(in general) that much and Apples aggressive cable policies drive me insane but this is getting really scary.
      - reitanqild 8y ago
        That was an unusually balanced perspective in a debate that usually tends to lack much nuance here. FWIW I'm partially in the same boat: I like Apple the company and I'm happy for everyone that likes and uses their products but I'm kind of incompatible myself.
osrec 8y ago
True, but let's say you bought a DSLR camera, wouldn't it irritate you if the manufacturer was secretly uploading your pictures elsewhere for others to use against you? To most, such practises would seem beyond intrusive. I sort of feel that this is what's happened here, albeit, in a subtler manner.
- archgoon 8y ago
  Is there any evidence that has happened? That sounds like it goes directly against the APIs terms of service. If device manufacturers are doing that, they could equally upload your passwords from the browser.
  - yayana 8y ago
    >. If device manufacturers are doing that, they could equally upload your passwords from the browser. And then fb should tell you about unusual accesses to your account unless the phone vendor is also your Telco and extremely careful. In OSes you can theoretically attack any app, but it is a pain to even debug them with different versions, changes to their custom storage formats, etc.. Unless they build an ABI, document which parts are stable and give it to you.
    - cornholio 8y ago
      FB can tell you about it but there is no law mandating anti-hijack security features. Nevermind that the spyware can be inserted in the client itself or in the official gateway supplied by Huawei, necessary "for technical reasons", making it completely invisible. Once the manufacturer goes outside the licensed API and uses your credentials to do more than Facebook allows, it commits an actual crime against you in most jurisdictions.
      - yayana 8y ago
        I'm sure people will be investigating and finding a few examples of on phone API violations then transferred. My bet: no criminal cases. Facebook charging less than 50k for violation of an API contract on data that isn't theirs, if numbers are disclosed. No standing for users except in a class action that get $5 or less on a new phone or $2 or less as a check.
pasquinelli 8y ago
just because something is true doesn't make it a good defense of facebook.
adjkant 8y ago
What if your friend does this and gets your data, even though you got the safe phone. Do we now have to be aware and affected by the technology choices of all of our friends? The problem here is that you are affected by not just your decision but the decisions of anyone who has access to your data on Facebook.

Hydraulix989 8y ago

There aren't a whole lot of (i.e. _any_) good actors because the market does not incentivize them. You can't rely on capitalism to resolve the Prisoner's Dilemma here. This is why Right to Repair legislation has become necessary, for example.

runesoerensen 8y ago
> There aren't a whole lot of (i.e. _any_) good actors because the market does not incentivize them Apple is a pretty good actor in this regard though, and they're clearly betting a lot on markets to realize the attractiveness of that. > This is why Right to Repair legislation has become necessary, for example. I'm not sure I see how a "bad" actor (maybe like Apple) in terms of the Right to Repair is relevant in the context of trusting device manufacturers. If anything I think Apple's (somewhat self-serving albeit not completely detached from reality) argument would be, and has been e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11047359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11047359, that their control of device repairs and servicing decreases the risk of malicious software or hardware components being installed.
- TheForumTroll 8y ago
  Apple is not a "Pretty good actor". Better than some, yes, but good? No.
  - ladzoppelin 8y ago
    Honestly, Apple's privacy move over the years is genius. Its going to be a long time, maybe never, before I buy something besides an iPhone. I don't even like Phones(in general) that much and Apples aggressive cable policies drive me insane but this is getting really scary.
    - reitanqild 8y ago
      That was an unusually balanced perspective in a debate that usually tends to lack much nuance here. FWIW I'm partially in the same boat: I like Apple the company and I'm happy for everyone that likes and uses their products but I'm kind of incompatible myself.

osrec 8y ago

True, but let's say you bought a DSLR camera, wouldn't it irritate you if the manufacturer was secretly uploading your pictures elsewhere for others to use against you? To most, such practises would seem beyond intrusive. I sort of feel that this is what's happened here, albeit, in a subtler manner.

archgoon 8y ago
Is there any evidence that has happened? That sounds like it goes directly against the APIs terms of service. If device manufacturers are doing that, they could equally upload your passwords from the browser.
- yayana 8y ago
  >. If device manufacturers are doing that, they could equally upload your passwords from the browser. And then fb should tell you about unusual accesses to your account unless the phone vendor is also your Telco and extremely careful. In OSes you can theoretically attack any app, but it is a pain to even debug them with different versions, changes to their custom storage formats, etc.. Unless they build an ABI, document which parts are stable and give it to you.
  - cornholio 8y ago
    FB can tell you about it but there is no law mandating anti-hijack security features. Nevermind that the spyware can be inserted in the client itself or in the official gateway supplied by Huawei, necessary "for technical reasons", making it completely invisible. Once the manufacturer goes outside the licensed API and uses your credentials to do more than Facebook allows, it commits an actual crime against you in most jurisdictions.
    - yayana 8y ago
      I'm sure people will be investigating and finding a few examples of on phone API violations then transferred. My bet: no criminal cases. Facebook charging less than 50k for violation of an API contract on data that isn't theirs, if numbers are disclosed. No standing for users except in a class action that get $5 or less on a new phone or $2 or less as a check.

pasquinelli 8y ago

just because something is true doesn't make it a good defense of facebook.

adjkant 8y ago

What if your friend does this and gets your data, even though you got the safe phone. Do we now have to be aware and affected by the technology choices of all of our friends? The problem here is that you are affected by not just your decision but the decisions of anyone who has access to your data on Facebook.