4 ms·

Dunno, whenever I dig into one of the "shitshows" I find I mostly agree with it. I'd say a decent fraction of the ones that make hacker news are some form of "

by sliken 8y ago

Dunno, whenever I dig into one of the "shitshows" I find I mostly agree with it. I'd say a decent fraction of the ones that make hacker news are some form of "Don't break userspace". He obviously feels it's quite important, and there's been several cases of failed perception (like the gnome folks breaking userspace "like linux does"). Sometimes it's worth being a bit over the top so that the entire community you are working with gets the message loud and clear. Seems like other communities (like bsd, gnome, debian, etc), often have extensive documentation, policies, and best practices... which are often ignored because every developer doesn't keep 100% of the best practices in mind at all times. I suspect a big part of why user space is broken so rarely in Linux is exactly because Linus has made such a big deal about it in the past.

gerdesj 8y ago
I suspect a big part of why user space is broken so rarely in Linux is exactly because Linus has made such a big deal about it in the past. Its almost as though he identified a weak point and ameliorated it! That's what an Engineer does. which are often ignored because every developer doesn't keep 100% of the best practices in mind at all times. There is no such thing as best practice - that is a nonsensical phrase that I think someone involved with MS created many moons ago and caught on in IT and I absolutely despise. There is good and bad practice but you had better be very, very good at something to tell me that you know best about that something.
gkya 8y ago
I was referring to the delivery more than the content. Frankly I don't know much about his side of computing, so I cannot agree or disagree anyways. My message in this thread is to the random guy getting into FOSS: don't make an annoying freaky nerd out of yourself becaue one particular annoying freaky nerd has been very successful. That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it.
- beagle3 8y ago
  > That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it. I do not know him personally, but people who do know him comment that he is a nice, considerate, thoughtful person. Linus has actually chimed into this metadiscussion in the past, basically saying something along the lines of "the audience is too big and too varied to be subtle. If I am not very explicit, someone will misunderstand this, usually as an invitation to keep wasting my time" (IIRC) -- which, having managed much much smaller projects, I tend to agree with and can only imagine how much more true this is an the Linux Kernel scale. The Finns I know are all very direct "straight shooters" - I guess that's part of it. > That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it. From three decades in the industry, I would say it's likely contributing to his success (though, it is independent of the cause/origin of his success, which is being smart, diligent, persistent and lucky). The ability to cut down and through bullshit is IMO fundamental, and it seems impossible to do without occasionally being rude.
  - oreganoz 8y ago
    You can still be direct without having to act out or treat people like they're idiots. It is not impossible to narrow down the complaints without being rude. Most people do that just fine, with way larger projects than his kernel. His behaviour is just unnecessary and distracting. It's almost as if he does it for publicity or shock value. Maybe that contributes to his success, but it shouldn't. I find it weird that people try to defend him rather than acknowledge it is just one of his character flaws. People aren't perfect, and neither is he. Doesn't take from his achievements but acting like he's in the right to behave this way is just enabling him. If people want to emulate him, they should look at the good and leave the asshole behaviour behind.
    - beagle3 8y ago
      > Most people do that just fine, with way larger projects than his kernel. What are your examples? Please qualify project size by number of contributors and their organizational and cultural diversity. According to [0], in 2015-2016 there were over 5,000 contributors sending patches, representing over 500 organizations (and likely, something like 50 countries/cultures/languages). Linus, through the LKML, corresponds with many of them, and has a small number of deputies. He is not paying any of these contributors, so he can't actually fire them, unlike e.g. Zuck, Jobs or Gates which, according to rumour, are/were all much less polite than Linus to their subordinates. > It's almost as if he does it for publicity or shock value He most definitely does, and uses it effectively. When he does, he mostly attacks ideas, not people. I've been following the LKML very intermittently, but my impression is that he is mostly kind and thoughtful in his answers while being direct. Those times that get to HN/Slashdot/Reddit/common-knowledge are few and far between, and mostly the 3rd or so response to the same thing (though, it has happened before on a "first offence"). > People aren't perfect, and neither is he. Doesn't take from his achievements but acting like he's in the right to behave this way is just enabling him. If people want to emulate him, they should look at the good and leave the asshole behaviour behind. No one said he was perfect. Some of us believe that it is effective; call it "necesary evil", but it's one of the very few management tools that he has - basically, refusing a merge, and voicing an opinion. I eagerly await your examples, as my experience is that people with much more management tools at their disposal are not better in this respect than Linus. Especially those examples (of "most people") that coordinate submission from 5,000 people mostly interacting directly with them. [0] https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/the-top-10-developers-and-companies-contributing-to-the-linux-kernel-in-2015-2016/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/the-top-10-developers-a...

by sliken 8y ago

gerdesj 8y ago

I suspect a big part of why user space is broken so rarely in Linux is exactly because Linus has made such a big deal about it in the past. Its almost as though he identified a weak point and ameliorated it! That's what an Engineer does. which are often ignored because every developer doesn't keep 100% of the best practices in mind at all times. There is no such thing as best practice - that is a nonsensical phrase that I think someone involved with MS created many moons ago and caught on in IT and I absolutely despise. There is good and bad practice but you had better be very, very good at something to tell me that you know best about that something.

gkya 8y ago

I was referring to the delivery more than the content. Frankly I don't know much about his side of computing, so I cannot agree or disagree anyways. My message in this thread is to the random guy getting into FOSS: don't make an annoying freaky nerd out of yourself becaue one particular annoying freaky nerd has been very successful. That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it.

beagle3 8y ago
> That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it. I do not know him personally, but people who do know him comment that he is a nice, considerate, thoughtful person. Linus has actually chimed into this metadiscussion in the past, basically saying something along the lines of "the audience is too big and too varied to be subtle. If I am not very explicit, someone will misunderstand this, usually as an invitation to keep wasting my time" (IIRC) -- which, having managed much much smaller projects, I tend to agree with and can only imagine how much more true this is an the Linux Kernel scale. The Finns I know are all very direct "straight shooters" - I guess that's part of it. > That he is so is not necessarily the cause of his success, and might even be invisibly detrimental to it. From three decades in the industry, I would say it's likely contributing to his success (though, it is independent of the cause/origin of his success, which is being smart, diligent, persistent and lucky). The ability to cut down and through bullshit is IMO fundamental, and it seems impossible to do without occasionally being rude.
- oreganoz 8y ago
  You can still be direct without having to act out or treat people like they're idiots. It is not impossible to narrow down the complaints without being rude. Most people do that just fine, with way larger projects than his kernel. His behaviour is just unnecessary and distracting. It's almost as if he does it for publicity or shock value. Maybe that contributes to his success, but it shouldn't. I find it weird that people try to defend him rather than acknowledge it is just one of his character flaws. People aren't perfect, and neither is he. Doesn't take from his achievements but acting like he's in the right to behave this way is just enabling him. If people want to emulate him, they should look at the good and leave the asshole behaviour behind.
  - beagle3 8y ago
    > Most people do that just fine, with way larger projects than his kernel. What are your examples? Please qualify project size by number of contributors and their organizational and cultural diversity. According to [0], in 2015-2016 there were over 5,000 contributors sending patches, representing over 500 organizations (and likely, something like 50 countries/cultures/languages). Linus, through the LKML, corresponds with many of them, and has a small number of deputies. He is not paying any of these contributors, so he can't actually fire them, unlike e.g. Zuck, Jobs or Gates which, according to rumour, are/were all much less polite than Linus to their subordinates. > It's almost as if he does it for publicity or shock value He most definitely does, and uses it effectively. When he does, he mostly attacks ideas, not people. I've been following the LKML very intermittently, but my impression is that he is mostly kind and thoughtful in his answers while being direct. Those times that get to HN/Slashdot/Reddit/common-knowledge are few and far between, and mostly the 3rd or so response to the same thing (though, it has happened before on a "first offence"). > People aren't perfect, and neither is he. Doesn't take from his achievements but acting like he's in the right to behave this way is just enabling him. If people want to emulate him, they should look at the good and leave the asshole behaviour behind. No one said he was perfect. Some of us believe that it is effective; call it "necesary evil", but it's one of the very few management tools that he has - basically, refusing a merge, and voicing an opinion. I eagerly await your examples, as my experience is that people with much more management tools at their disposal are not better in this respect than Linus. Especially those examples (of "most people") that coordinate submission from 5,000 people mostly interacting directly with them. [0] https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/the-top-10-developers-and-companies-contributing-to-the-linux-kernel-in-2015-2016/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/the-top-10-developers-a...