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""Those concerns came to the fore after another engineer, James Damore, wrote a 3,000-word memo assailing the firm’s affirmative action policies and suggesting

""Those concerns came to the fore after another engineer, James Damore, wrote a 3,000-word memo assailing the firm’s affirmative action policies and suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs."" he didnt suggest that at all, badly written articles like this are why this problem even happens

ironjunkie 8y ago
exactly. The issue is that if you try to objectively voice your opinion on this saying that medias are misrepresenting the Memo in order to fit a narrative, you are automatically seen as anti-progress anti-women-in-tech.
- taborj 8y ago
  This is not just limited to this case. Try to bring a rational, pro-gun opinion to a debate? You're a monster who wants to shoot kids. Try to bring a rational, anti-gun opinion to an opposite debate? You're a gun grabber. Opposing view on homosexuality? Abortion? Religion? Get out of here, you don't fit the status quo. I've found that the most 'tolerant' people are in fact quite the opposite, and the echo chamber that is the current state of affairs isn't helping. Nobody wants to hear the opposing viewpoint, they all just want their views confirmed, and to be seen doing "the right thing" by a specific group of people.
ekianjo 8y ago
> badly written articles like this are why this problem even happens When you have a narrative to push, you keep telling lies. Not surprising to see this repeated over and over again. Instead, they could just link to Damore's memo: https://www.quotev.com/story/9922506/James-Damores-Diversity-Memo/1 https://www.quotev.com/story/9922506/James-Damores-Diversity...
- candiodari 8y ago
  Any time there is a "right at all costs" ideology, I assure you, mistakes like these will grow to seem utterly insignificant at an astonishing pace. Now the demand to tie financial compensation directly to the ideology. Selective hiring to ideology AND gender. That IS bad. Elsewhere on the internet you find that using outright violence against individuals is acceptable in service of this ideology (or you know, just search "antifa" on youtube, to see that whatever these people are, they have zero interest in bringing us a more peaceful planet). I assure you, this will get worse, far worse, before it gets better. And the irony is, that the base instinct that causes racism is the same as the instinct that drives these efforts. People wanting to feel better about themselves, without, of course, actually doing anything for it. "Action", by attacking others, nothing else. The ideologies always start with a core of people that are actually admirable. But at some point they decide to grow their movement, and feel the need to include every brutish idiot moron they can to achieve their aims. From that point forward, however, their aims are nothing more than entertaining brutish morons. Worse than that, this forces their opponents to do the same, or face getting beaten up or worse.
- anon12345690 8y ago
  link to the original: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...
cortesoft 8y ago
Except, he did, in a few different ways: "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." "On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. ... Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ... Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average" He is clearly using softer language to make his point, but he spends multiple paragraphs explaining why biological reasons are behind the lack of women in tech.... which boils down to "men are biologically better suited for tech work." It isn't a bad characterization to say that is saying women are biologically less qualified than men for tech jobs.
- autarch 8y ago
  I would summarize those two quotes as saying something more like "women may be biologically less inclined to want a job in tech and therefore expecting a 50% representation of women is unrealistic". My reading of the memo, way back when it broke, was that his argument was more about differences in interest/inclination rather than ability.
  - ino 8y ago
    I dispute that the difference in interest, if it exists, is biological. There are so many societal factors that come into play here from early age, and they all influence the outcome. It's an unfair world from the start.
    - anon12345690 8y ago
      how can you say that you dont think interest exists but if it does then its definitely not biological?
      - sattoshi 8y ago
        This is how partisan ideology warps your mind.
      - deleted 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
matthewmacleod 8y ago
“I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership” Maybe it’s a little more nuanced than “suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs." But it’s not a gross oversimplification.
- nilkn 8y ago
  It seems like that could easily mean that certain groups are just less interested in certain types of work, no?
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    Then that suggests a fundamental brokenness. If the industry is structured in such a way that certain groups who are qualified have less interest in participating, then there is a problem in that industry.
    - nilkn 8y ago
      It could be that the industry is off-putting to certain groups of people. You're certainly right that this is a possibility. However, it could also be that some people actually just aren't all that interested in certain careers. A holistic point of view on this topic would take into account all factors rather than fixating on just one.
    - ledfrog 8y ago
      How about looking at more blue collar industries and see if your theory holds up. Say auto mechanics...I doubt there's a "problem" in that industry that keep more women from becoming mechanics. I can't tell you why most women are not that interested in cars, let alone working on them, but I know that it's true. The same could be said for garbage collectors, oil rig workers, etc. I've worked in tech all of my adult life and I rarely see women in this field. The few that have come through my places of work usually stay to get some basic computer experience and then move on to whatever they wanted to do in the first place. I have yet to meet a woman that has the same passion for all things tech that I and a lot of my male friends have. But let's say you're right...how would you propose that tech companies generate more interest that would appeal to women? I mean we all know women love to USE technology, apps, games, etc., but how can we get them to crossover to the side of creating, maintaining and supporting these things?
tdb7893 8y ago
It's an easy mistake to make, he says in the memo that differences in both preference and abilities (emphasis mine) are partially due to biological causes.
- anon12345690 8y ago
  its not a mistake, its misrepresentation
  - tdb7893 8y ago
    Sometimes it is but the person was complaining about the wording "3,000-word memo assailing the firm’s affirmative action policies and suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs" and I think everyone can agree it assails the affirmative action policies. To quote the memo itself "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership". Saying the difference in abilities being in part biological could lead a reasonable person to think he is saying that women are less qualified biologically.
    - hueving 8y ago
      Speaking about statistical averages, not individuals. There are more men who can lift 50 pounds over their heads than women. It does not mean that a woman cannot be hired for a job that requires her to lift 50 pounds over her head. It means that there will be a smaller pool of candidates so expecting a 50/50 hiring is stupid.
      - tdb7893 8y ago
        Saying that women as a population are less able to do tech jobs seems functionally very similar to the original characterization of "suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs".
galieos_ghost 8y ago
There's obviously zero biological differences between men and women, the differences are all sociological. For that reason I demand gender equality in the NFL at middle linebacker and in the olympic 100 meter dash. The only explanation for the fact that no female has ever made the olympic finals in the 100 meter dash is discrimination.

ironjunkie 8y ago

exactly. The issue is that if you try to objectively voice your opinion on this saying that medias are misrepresenting the Memo in order to fit a narrative, you are automatically seen as anti-progress anti-women-in-tech.

taborj 8y ago
This is not just limited to this case. Try to bring a rational, pro-gun opinion to a debate? You're a monster who wants to shoot kids. Try to bring a rational, anti-gun opinion to an opposite debate? You're a gun grabber. Opposing view on homosexuality? Abortion? Religion? Get out of here, you don't fit the status quo. I've found that the most 'tolerant' people are in fact quite the opposite, and the echo chamber that is the current state of affairs isn't helping. Nobody wants to hear the opposing viewpoint, they all just want their views confirmed, and to be seen doing "the right thing" by a specific group of people.

ekianjo 8y ago

> badly written articles like this are why this problem even happens When you have a narrative to push, you keep telling lies. Not surprising to see this repeated over and over again. Instead, they could just link to Damore's memo: https://www.quotev.com/story/9922506/James-Damores-Diversity-Memo/1 https://www.quotev.com/story/9922506/James-Damores-Diversity...

candiodari 8y ago
Any time there is a "right at all costs" ideology, I assure you, mistakes like these will grow to seem utterly insignificant at an astonishing pace. Now the demand to tie financial compensation directly to the ideology. Selective hiring to ideology AND gender. That IS bad. Elsewhere on the internet you find that using outright violence against individuals is acceptable in service of this ideology (or you know, just search "antifa" on youtube, to see that whatever these people are, they have zero interest in bringing us a more peaceful planet). I assure you, this will get worse, far worse, before it gets better. And the irony is, that the base instinct that causes racism is the same as the instinct that drives these efforts. People wanting to feel better about themselves, without, of course, actually doing anything for it. "Action", by attacking others, nothing else. The ideologies always start with a core of people that are actually admirable. But at some point they decide to grow their movement, and feel the need to include every brutish idiot moron they can to achieve their aims. From that point forward, however, their aims are nothing more than entertaining brutish morons. Worse than that, this forces their opponents to do the same, or face getting beaten up or worse.
anon12345690 8y ago
link to the original: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

cortesoft 8y ago

Except, he did, in a few different ways: "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." "On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. ... Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ... Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average" He is clearly using softer language to make his point, but he spends multiple paragraphs explaining why biological reasons are behind the lack of women in tech.... which boils down to "men are biologically better suited for tech work." It isn't a bad characterization to say that is saying women are biologically less qualified than men for tech jobs.

autarch 8y ago
I would summarize those two quotes as saying something more like "women may be biologically less inclined to want a job in tech and therefore expecting a 50% representation of women is unrealistic". My reading of the memo, way back when it broke, was that his argument was more about differences in interest/inclination rather than ability.
- ino 8y ago
  I dispute that the difference in interest, if it exists, is biological. There are so many societal factors that come into play here from early age, and they all influence the outcome. It's an unfair world from the start.
  - anon12345690 8y ago
    how can you say that you dont think interest exists but if it does then its definitely not biological?
    - sattoshi 8y ago
      This is how partisan ideology warps your mind.
    - deleted 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

matthewmacleod 8y ago

“I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership” Maybe it’s a little more nuanced than “suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs." But it’s not a gross oversimplification.

nilkn 8y ago
It seems like that could easily mean that certain groups are just less interested in certain types of work, no?
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  Then that suggests a fundamental brokenness. If the industry is structured in such a way that certain groups who are qualified have less interest in participating, then there is a problem in that industry.
  - nilkn 8y ago
    It could be that the industry is off-putting to certain groups of people. You're certainly right that this is a possibility. However, it could also be that some people actually just aren't all that interested in certain careers. A holistic point of view on this topic would take into account all factors rather than fixating on just one.
  - ledfrog 8y ago
    How about looking at more blue collar industries and see if your theory holds up. Say auto mechanics...I doubt there's a "problem" in that industry that keep more women from becoming mechanics. I can't tell you why most women are not that interested in cars, let alone working on them, but I know that it's true. The same could be said for garbage collectors, oil rig workers, etc. I've worked in tech all of my adult life and I rarely see women in this field. The few that have come through my places of work usually stay to get some basic computer experience and then move on to whatever they wanted to do in the first place. I have yet to meet a woman that has the same passion for all things tech that I and a lot of my male friends have. But let's say you're right...how would you propose that tech companies generate more interest that would appeal to women? I mean we all know women love to USE technology, apps, games, etc., but how can we get them to crossover to the side of creating, maintaining and supporting these things?

tdb7893 8y ago

It's an easy mistake to make, he says in the memo that differences in both preference and abilities (emphasis mine) are partially due to biological causes.

anon12345690 8y ago
its not a mistake, its misrepresentation
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Sometimes it is but the person was complaining about the wording "3,000-word memo assailing the firm’s affirmative action policies and suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs" and I think everyone can agree it assails the affirmative action policies. To quote the memo itself "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership". Saying the difference in abilities being in part biological could lead a reasonable person to think he is saying that women are less qualified biologically.
  - hueving 8y ago
    Speaking about statistical averages, not individuals. There are more men who can lift 50 pounds over their heads than women. It does not mean that a woman cannot be hired for a job that requires her to lift 50 pounds over her head. It means that there will be a smaller pool of candidates so expecting a 50/50 hiring is stupid.
    - tdb7893 8y ago
      Saying that women as a population are less able to do tech jobs seems functionally very similar to the original characterization of "suggesting women are biologically less-qualified than men for tech jobs".

galieos_ghost 8y ago

There's obviously zero biological differences between men and women, the differences are all sociological. For that reason I demand gender equality in the NFL at middle linebacker and in the olympic 100 meter dash. The only explanation for the fact that no female has ever made the olympic finals in the 100 meter dash is discrimination.