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I don't think a "civil tone" is necessary; directed anger can be good and helpful. The problem with Linus is that he just smears it around aimlessly, adding lot

by TillE 8y ago

I don't think a "civil tone" is necessary; directed anger can be good and helpful. The problem with Linus is that he just smears it around aimlessly, adding lots of boring noise to what may have been an interesting technical argument.

tptacek 8y ago
It's not real anger, is my point. It's just shit-stirring. Unless he's got far less self-awareness than I credit a functioning adult of his industry stature, he has to know that people reading his "idiot fucking brain-damage" spiel sort of roll their eyes and think "there goes Linus again"; nobody stops, catches a breath, and thinks "damn, he's really upset this time".
- zzzcpan 8y ago
  > roll their eyes and think "there goes Linus again" You both seem to be unaware, that emotional responses are not universal. A swear word in a second language and a different less sensitive culture doesn't feel like much to cause anyone to care enough to roll their eyes.
- busterarm 8y ago
  "there goes tptacek moralizing to everyone again" (I am merely trying to illustrate that we are all creatures of habit)
- JoshCole 8y ago
  When I hear open source maintainers talk about their woes, it tends to be that they are a single person and their are many people who try to contribute who think they are offering great things, but who are in fact just giving them shit that they must then maintain for the rest of their lives. In a world in which there are only two people communicating with each other, you're definitely right that the point he is making can be made better. But consider that he just made his point to thousands upon thousands of potential contributors, because the message was shared. This directly addresses two of the things I hear open source maintainers complain about: it discourages the giving of shitty things and it moves away from the poorly scaling one on one communication.
- megaman22 8y ago
  But is it effective? That's really the point. I also feel like we see every single abrasive Linus email hauled out of context to make this point that he's an over-dramatic asshat, and not the mountain of mundane ones where he isn't torching somebody to make a point.
nhaehnle 8y ago
> The problem with Linus is that he just smears it around aimlessly I take it you don't really read a lot of Linus' mail? I find it hard to believe that somebody would think that, unless they only got to see a highly biased selection of his emails. Also, consider that we would never have had this thread in which several people are learning about gcc's documented behavior on unions if it hadn't been for the somewhat strong language. It serves a genuine purpose.

by TillE 8y ago

tptacek 8y ago

It's not real anger, is my point. It's just shit-stirring. Unless he's got far less self-awareness than I credit a functioning adult of his industry stature, he has to know that people reading his "idiot fucking brain-damage" spiel sort of roll their eyes and think "there goes Linus again"; nobody stops, catches a breath, and thinks "damn, he's really upset this time".

zzzcpan 8y ago
> roll their eyes and think "there goes Linus again" You both seem to be unaware, that emotional responses are not universal. A swear word in a second language and a different less sensitive culture doesn't feel like much to cause anyone to care enough to roll their eyes.
busterarm 8y ago
"there goes tptacek moralizing to everyone again" (I am merely trying to illustrate that we are all creatures of habit)
JoshCole 8y ago
When I hear open source maintainers talk about their woes, it tends to be that they are a single person and their are many people who try to contribute who think they are offering great things, but who are in fact just giving them shit that they must then maintain for the rest of their lives. In a world in which there are only two people communicating with each other, you're definitely right that the point he is making can be made better. But consider that he just made his point to thousands upon thousands of potential contributors, because the message was shared. This directly addresses two of the things I hear open source maintainers complain about: it discourages the giving of shitty things and it moves away from the poorly scaling one on one communication.
megaman22 8y ago
But is it effective? That's really the point. I also feel like we see every single abrasive Linus email hauled out of context to make this point that he's an over-dramatic asshat, and not the mountain of mundane ones where he isn't torching somebody to make a point.

nhaehnle 8y ago

> The problem with Linus is that he just smears it around aimlessly I take it you don't really read a lot of Linus' mail? I find it hard to believe that somebody would think that, unless they only got to see a highly biased selection of his emails. Also, consider that we would never have had this thread in which several people are learning about gcc's documented behavior on unions if it hadn't been for the somewhat strong language. It serves a genuine purpose.