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Why are we singing his praises here? He sells a hangover drink, and in order to not have to get FDA approval he calls it a dietary supplement. Chances are this

Why are we singing his praises here? He sells a hangover drink, and in order to not have to get FDA approval he calls it a dietary supplement. Chances are this does not work at all, and he's selling something with false promises and no regulation. Are we praising snake oil salesmen for their businesses acumen now? The Tesla connection seems like nothing more than click bait since it's not related, except maybe gave him connections to be able to raise $450 000 from angel investors.

protonimitate 8y ago
I think that's an overly negative view of the article. People are more interested in how he got where he is, not the product itself. Just because it's not FDA approved yet, doesn't mean its garbage. Not to mention the countless harmful and down right useless products that are pushed and approved by the FDA every year. Tesla connection is important because people have been on an anti-Tesla tear lately, and this paints them in a pretty good light as far as big companies go. He is being praised for his cautious and systematic approach to building a start-up, versus the rockstar/reckless founder meme that is prevalent these days.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  FDA approval is actually relatively lax as it is. To pass the FDA, you pretty much have to do better than a placebo. There's no comparative studies, there's no cross-drug studies, there's no major side-effect studies. FDA testing is almost purely Drug vs Placebo. So if things aren't FDA approved or otherwise are avoiding FDA studies, you need to be cautious with those products. The reason why so many "harmful" products get past the FDA is due to the lack of testing btw. Its a known problem, but no one wants to make FDA testing harder for some reason. I guess the drug lobby has done a good job at making people distrust the FDA. For more details, look up "Phase IV Clinical Trials", which are the studies people want to standardize that go above and beyond the FDA minimums. (Including cross-drug interactions, better studies into side-effects, comparative studies, cost-benefit studies, patient-centered surveys, etc. etc. There's a LOT of studies that simply aren't done)
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    > FDA approval is actually relatively lax as it is. To pass the FDA, you pretty much have to do better than a placebo. That's the D part of the FDA. The article specifies that he was advised not to call it either of a "cure" or a "drink". Drinks fall under the FDA's core F responsibility. But he's ordering this drink from a factory that already produces enormous quantities of the same drink for consumption by Koreans. I'm not really worried that drinking it is unsafe, so the dietary supplement branding seems fair. As to drug testing, doing better than placebo in a trial the FDA will accept is incredibly expensive regardless of how effective your drug is.
Retric 8y ago
There are a wide range of thing you can do that reduce or eliminate Hangovers. If he was using Gatorade it would 'work' which IMO is a step beyond the classic snake oil.
- aqme28 8y ago
  Even water "works." Come to think of it, how do you test a hangover cure drink? What is your control?
  - elvirs 8y ago
    as a regular drunk and consumer of large quantities of water when drunk and when sober I have to admit Gatorade is so much more effective in preventing hangover headache compared to water, I couldn't believe it myself
    - DanHulton 8y ago
      I can't remember where I read this, but if you're prone to dehydration headaches (which is what a hangover headache typically is), don't drink water, or at least not just water. Instead, mix a pinch of sugar and a pinch of salt into a quarter-glass of water. Mix well, drink. You'll rehydrate far better and faster with this than with just water. This is probably why Gatorade works so much better than just water, but this method is far, far cheaper.
      - dmach 8y ago
        Around our parts 7up is consider medicinal if you've the flu as it's the right balance of sugar and salt in it. Hot toddy to prevent a cold. I'm not sure of any studies.
        shalmanese 8y ago
        7up has 132 mg of sodium and 112 g of sugar per liter. Oral Rehydration Solution has 1000mg of sodium and 14g of sugar per liter. Gatorade is much closer with 440 mg of sodium and 58g of sugar per liter.
modzu 8y ago
hn eats up get rich quick clickbait
- modzu 8y ago
  (yes i realize i clicked the article too). but really this is on the front page? ps: the cure for hangover is breakfast
  - JTon 8y ago
    > ps: the cure for hangover is breakfast And sleep and plenty of water ;)
  - phodo 8y ago
    Or pho
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Anecdotally, I always make myself drink a full glass of water before bed if I've been drinking, and give the same to anyone I've been drinking with, and it seems to prevent hangover every time. Correlation is not causation, of course, but it can't hurt.
  - danso 8y ago
    I've found eating a banana and a glass of water before passing out seems to stop most hangovers. Problem is the eating-before-passing-out part.
  - tonyhb 8y ago
    Realistically speaking the correct hangover cure is n-acetylcysteine (NAC)[0], vitamin C, thiamine [1], water, and activated carbon to absorb toxins from alcohol breakdown. NAC improves the performance of your liver enzymes, helping break down alcohol and lessening alcohol-related liver damage. Vitamin C helps replenish lost vitamins through alcohol consumption. Thiamine helps replenish vitamins necessary for energy production in your brain, lessening alcohol-related brain damage. And water. Cuz water. This combo as you drink or after you've finished consumption will severely reduce any adverse hangover effects. Maybe I should make a hangover drink. [0] https://medium.com/@researchangover/n-acetyl-cysteine-hangover-nac-for-liver-4c2278ee4e86 https://medium.com/@researchangover/n-acetyl-cysteine-hangov... [1] https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/134-142.htm https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/134-142.htm
paulpauper 8y ago
agree. found this article lacking and click-baity. I dunno why it got so many votes
rukittenme 8y ago
A great many things the FDA has approved have been recalled. A great many more things do not have FDA approval at all but have the approval of regulatory agencies in the EU, Canada, and the rest of the world. My point being we should not rely on government agencies as our source of truth. Additionally, the misuse (or overuse) of "snake oil" is becoming cliche. This hangover cure may work or it may not. But it certainly isn't snake oil because it has a limited scope of operation. And, until proven otherwise, was created as an honest attempt to alleviate hangover symptoms. Rather than being a callous money grab at the expense of people's health.
komali2 8y ago
Because it's capitalism and that's how capitalism works. I don't like capitalism but I like games, and this guy played the game very well. If we don't like the constraints/rules why are we blaming the people who followed those constraints when establishing their algorithms, especially when culture tells them to do so? Basically, don't hate the player, hate the game. (Also let's go ahead and get post scarcity asap please starting to get tired of capitalism)
- anon808 8y ago
  "don't hate the player, hate the game." Why can't I hate both? That's how values work, I don't value his methods, and I don't value the person that chooses the methods I don't value.
  - komali2 8y ago
    You can hate both. I'm challenging your values. I'm saying they're misdirected. I also don't like snake oil, but I don't blame agents for acting in a fit manner.
    - anon808 8y ago
      Sounds more like I'm challenging your values . . . how can you not blame agents (people) for acting to further something you don't like? Those people have a choice, and they're choosing to further something you don't like, how is it not logical to blame the people for making that choice? What you're saying is what's usually said about animals, "don't blame the bear for eating you if it's hungry and you're there". Only difference is that animals are pure instinct, whereas people aren't.
      - komali2 8y ago
        I'm taking a population-wide perspective. It is unrealistic for me to individually scold every person that runs against my values. Therefore, it is a waste of energy to do so for even one. Instead, I should spend energy focusing on the systems that allowed the behavior at all.
jlgaddis 8y ago
> Why are we singing his praises here? It seems that on HN -- and in the startup culture, in general -- this is considered a "hack" and is something to be proud of. Kinda like how Uber skirting around those pesky laws and lawmakers was seen as clever and inspirational.
- kchr 8y ago
  It's disgusting, really.
diogenescynic 8y ago
Honestly reminds me a lot of the Sharktank episode where the guy with SEO experience was selling magnetic healing bracelets. He was making money, but all the sharks passed on his business because as you said it was all a scam.

protonimitate 8y ago

I think that's an overly negative view of the article. People are more interested in how he got where he is, not the product itself. Just because it's not FDA approved yet, doesn't mean its garbage. Not to mention the countless harmful and down right useless products that are pushed and approved by the FDA every year. Tesla connection is important because people have been on an anti-Tesla tear lately, and this paints them in a pretty good light as far as big companies go. He is being praised for his cautious and systematic approach to building a start-up, versus the rockstar/reckless founder meme that is prevalent these days.

dragontamer 8y ago
FDA approval is actually relatively lax as it is. To pass the FDA, you pretty much have to do better than a placebo. There's no comparative studies, there's no cross-drug studies, there's no major side-effect studies. FDA testing is almost purely Drug vs Placebo. So if things aren't FDA approved or otherwise are avoiding FDA studies, you need to be cautious with those products. The reason why so many "harmful" products get past the FDA is due to the lack of testing btw. Its a known problem, but no one wants to make FDA testing harder for some reason. I guess the drug lobby has done a good job at making people distrust the FDA. For more details, look up "Phase IV Clinical Trials", which are the studies people want to standardize that go above and beyond the FDA minimums. (Including cross-drug interactions, better studies into side-effects, comparative studies, cost-benefit studies, patient-centered surveys, etc. etc. There's a LOT of studies that simply aren't done)
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > FDA approval is actually relatively lax as it is. To pass the FDA, you pretty much have to do better than a placebo. That's the D part of the FDA. The article specifies that he was advised not to call it either of a "cure" or a "drink". Drinks fall under the FDA's core F responsibility. But he's ordering this drink from a factory that already produces enormous quantities of the same drink for consumption by Koreans. I'm not really worried that drinking it is unsafe, so the dietary supplement branding seems fair. As to drug testing, doing better than placebo in a trial the FDA will accept is incredibly expensive regardless of how effective your drug is.

Retric 8y ago

There are a wide range of thing you can do that reduce or eliminate Hangovers. If he was using Gatorade it would 'work' which IMO is a step beyond the classic snake oil.

aqme28 8y ago
Even water "works." Come to think of it, how do you test a hangover cure drink? What is your control?
- elvirs 8y ago
  as a regular drunk and consumer of large quantities of water when drunk and when sober I have to admit Gatorade is so much more effective in preventing hangover headache compared to water, I couldn't believe it myself
  - DanHulton 8y ago
    I can't remember where I read this, but if you're prone to dehydration headaches (which is what a hangover headache typically is), don't drink water, or at least not just water. Instead, mix a pinch of sugar and a pinch of salt into a quarter-glass of water. Mix well, drink. You'll rehydrate far better and faster with this than with just water. This is probably why Gatorade works so much better than just water, but this method is far, far cheaper.
    - dmach 8y ago
      Around our parts 7up is consider medicinal if you've the flu as it's the right balance of sugar and salt in it. Hot toddy to prevent a cold. I'm not sure of any studies.
      - shalmanese 8y ago
        7up has 132 mg of sodium and 112 g of sugar per liter. Oral Rehydration Solution has 1000mg of sodium and 14g of sugar per liter. Gatorade is much closer with 440 mg of sodium and 58g of sugar per liter.

modzu 8y ago

hn eats up get rich quick clickbait

modzu 8y ago
(yes i realize i clicked the article too). but really this is on the front page? ps: the cure for hangover is breakfast
- JTon 8y ago
  > ps: the cure for hangover is breakfast And sleep and plenty of water ;)
- phodo 8y ago
  Or pho
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  Anecdotally, I always make myself drink a full glass of water before bed if I've been drinking, and give the same to anyone I've been drinking with, and it seems to prevent hangover every time. Correlation is not causation, of course, but it can't hurt.
- danso 8y ago
  I've found eating a banana and a glass of water before passing out seems to stop most hangovers. Problem is the eating-before-passing-out part.
- tonyhb 8y ago
  Realistically speaking the correct hangover cure is n-acetylcysteine (NAC)[0], vitamin C, thiamine [1], water, and activated carbon to absorb toxins from alcohol breakdown. NAC improves the performance of your liver enzymes, helping break down alcohol and lessening alcohol-related liver damage. Vitamin C helps replenish lost vitamins through alcohol consumption. Thiamine helps replenish vitamins necessary for energy production in your brain, lessening alcohol-related brain damage. And water. Cuz water. This combo as you drink or after you've finished consumption will severely reduce any adverse hangover effects. Maybe I should make a hangover drink. [0] https://medium.com/@researchangover/n-acetyl-cysteine-hangover-nac-for-liver-4c2278ee4e86 https://medium.com/@researchangover/n-acetyl-cysteine-hangov... [1] https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/134-142.htm https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/134-142.htm

paulpauper 8y ago

agree. found this article lacking and click-baity. I dunno why it got so many votes

rukittenme 8y ago

A great many things the FDA has approved have been recalled. A great many more things do not have FDA approval at all but have the approval of regulatory agencies in the EU, Canada, and the rest of the world. My point being we should not rely on government agencies as our source of truth. Additionally, the misuse (or overuse) of "snake oil" is becoming cliche. This hangover cure may work or it may not. But it certainly isn't snake oil because it has a limited scope of operation. And, until proven otherwise, was created as an honest attempt to alleviate hangover symptoms. Rather than being a callous money grab at the expense of people's health.

komali2 8y ago

Because it's capitalism and that's how capitalism works. I don't like capitalism but I like games, and this guy played the game very well. If we don't like the constraints/rules why are we blaming the people who followed those constraints when establishing their algorithms, especially when culture tells them to do so? Basically, don't hate the player, hate the game. (Also let's go ahead and get post scarcity asap please starting to get tired of capitalism)

anon808 8y ago
"don't hate the player, hate the game." Why can't I hate both? That's how values work, I don't value his methods, and I don't value the person that chooses the methods I don't value.
- komali2 8y ago
  You can hate both. I'm challenging your values. I'm saying they're misdirected. I also don't like snake oil, but I don't blame agents for acting in a fit manner.
  - anon808 8y ago
    Sounds more like I'm challenging your values . . . how can you not blame agents (people) for acting to further something you don't like? Those people have a choice, and they're choosing to further something you don't like, how is it not logical to blame the people for making that choice? What you're saying is what's usually said about animals, "don't blame the bear for eating you if it's hungry and you're there". Only difference is that animals are pure instinct, whereas people aren't.
    - komali2 8y ago
      I'm taking a population-wide perspective. It is unrealistic for me to individually scold every person that runs against my values. Therefore, it is a waste of energy to do so for even one. Instead, I should spend energy focusing on the systems that allowed the behavior at all.

jlgaddis 8y ago

> Why are we singing his praises here? It seems that on HN -- and in the startup culture, in general -- this is considered a "hack" and is something to be proud of. Kinda like how Uber skirting around those pesky laws and lawmakers was seen as clever and inspirational.

kchr 8y ago
It's disgusting, really.

diogenescynic 8y ago

Honestly reminds me a lot of the Sharktank episode where the guy with SEO experience was selling magnetic healing bracelets. He was making money, but all the sharks passed on his business because as you said it was all a scam.