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Be clear what you mean by voluntary. I agree that preventing a person to choose to sell something they own is a restriction on their freedom. But problems aris

Be clear what you mean by voluntary. I agree that preventing a person to choose to sell something they own is a restriction on their freedom. But problems arise when the negotiation of that exchange is unilateral, relegated to EULAs and contracts which are incomprehensible, non-negotiable, and mandatory to purchase the product, and performed in a less-than-perfectly-efficient market. It would be one thing if I could buy a Tesla, a Nest, or log onto a site with ads, and the process included a step where I could elect to share my data, to not share my data, or to give them the data and promise not to ask for it back, with different price points for each. It's another thing when giving people the freedom to give up certain rights results in all manufacturers requiring people to exercise that freedom in order to purchase products. The market is far from efficient. There is no car that's just like a Tesla but costs more by the value of this data exchange. There is no negotiation of the contract with Tesla, it's built into the purchase price and required by the legal department. Observing that the market is pervasively inefficient in a way that leads to a bad outcome, and devising regulations that correct the inefficiency, is precisely why we have laws and governments.

Symmetry 8y ago
I'd be fine if the only way to get a Tesla was to deliberately sign over your rights to the data. But nobody reads the EULA and the vast majority of consumers have no idea that this is something they're agreeing to. I'd really like for us as a society to rethink how consumer consent could work in a way that doesn't require everyone to be a lawyer. But given that most of the rules around this have been constructed implicitly by lawyers and judges I'm not sure how that could happen.
- vkou 8y ago
  What about used car sales? Are you now unable to sell your car, unless the buyer agrees to the TOS?
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    This is precisely how covenants work on real estate, and is how things like homeowners' associations perpetuate themselves: the original builder, or the first owner to join the HOA, attaches a covenant which will require all future owners to also join the HOA and follow the HOA's policies. In prior times, such covenants were also used to try to racially segregate property, by forbidding sale to a person of a race the covenant's creator disliked (such covenants are technically still valid, but unenforceable by US courts). And they're sometimes used for other things, too; I recall there was a house near my college's campus that the college wanted to purchase and use, but the owner had set up a restrictive covenant that would forbid any later purchaser/inheritor from selling it to the college.
gonational 8y ago
The A in EULA stands for “agreement”. How can an entity “unilaterally” bind you to a EULA? (hint: they can’t) Just because many people don’t value their privacy, or are too lazy to try to understand contracts before they agree to them, doesn’t mean I want to give up my rights to protect those same idiots. Do you remember guy who caused the whole group to have to do pushups in gym class? That’s kind of the situation intelligent people are in now, except it’s an entire class of idiots removing the rights of just a few who are smart enough to make their own decisions. The worst part is that these same idiots, who were too dumb to understand that you shouldn’t sign up for a service that offers 100 pages of fine text in their license, are also deciding on the solution (e.g., GDPR) for the problems they put themselves in, which means they will undoubtedly fail to protect themselves, while also succeeding at screwing us over.
- falcolas 8y ago
  So, have you read through and completely understood the 39 pages of TOS and Privacy Policy docs required to post on HN? Do you consider those who have not to also be "idiots"?
  - gonational 8y ago
    I’m glad for your response. It reminds me of why I am able to come in such a high salary.

Symmetry 8y ago

I'd be fine if the only way to get a Tesla was to deliberately sign over your rights to the data. But nobody reads the EULA and the vast majority of consumers have no idea that this is something they're agreeing to. I'd really like for us as a society to rethink how consumer consent could work in a way that doesn't require everyone to be a lawyer. But given that most of the rules around this have been constructed implicitly by lawyers and judges I'm not sure how that could happen.

vkou 8y ago
What about used car sales? Are you now unable to sell your car, unless the buyer agrees to the TOS?
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  This is precisely how covenants work on real estate, and is how things like homeowners' associations perpetuate themselves: the original builder, or the first owner to join the HOA, attaches a covenant which will require all future owners to also join the HOA and follow the HOA's policies. In prior times, such covenants were also used to try to racially segregate property, by forbidding sale to a person of a race the covenant's creator disliked (such covenants are technically still valid, but unenforceable by US courts). And they're sometimes used for other things, too; I recall there was a house near my college's campus that the college wanted to purchase and use, but the owner had set up a restrictive covenant that would forbid any later purchaser/inheritor from selling it to the college.

gonational 8y ago

The A in EULA stands for “agreement”. How can an entity “unilaterally” bind you to a EULA? (hint: they can’t) Just because many people don’t value their privacy, or are too lazy to try to understand contracts before they agree to them, doesn’t mean I want to give up my rights to protect those same idiots. Do you remember guy who caused the whole group to have to do pushups in gym class? That’s kind of the situation intelligent people are in now, except it’s an entire class of idiots removing the rights of just a few who are smart enough to make their own decisions. The worst part is that these same idiots, who were too dumb to understand that you shouldn’t sign up for a service that offers 100 pages of fine text in their license, are also deciding on the solution (e.g., GDPR) for the problems they put themselves in, which means they will undoubtedly fail to protect themselves, while also succeeding at screwing us over.

falcolas 8y ago
So, have you read through and completely understood the 39 pages of TOS and Privacy Policy docs required to post on HN? Do you consider those who have not to also be "idiots"?
- gonational 8y ago
  I’m glad for your response. It reminds me of why I am able to come in such a high salary.