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So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to go to court to get it.

jopsen 8y ago
GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)
- pwagland 8y ago
  Well, I'm (living as an) European, so I actually support GDPR anyway. But yes, I always wondered exactly what grounds they used to publish some of this data.
  - Negitivefrags 8y ago
    I'm curious why you think that being European implies you also support GDPR.
- kodablah 8y ago
  You have succinctly, albeit unintentionally, summed up why the GDPR is often seen as bad. The way I read it "the end goal is good and/or some part of it is good, so it is all good, right?" Requiring transparency requirements of companies like Tesla is laudable without a bunch of baggage and large sweeping changes. Unfortunately people often can't see the difference between intent and implementation and assume you are for both or against both.
- gonational 8y ago
  No. You know what sounds nice? Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.
  - nerbert 8y ago
    Sure, very simple logic. That is of course until Comcast becomes the only internet provider in your area. I prefer my gov to have my back on those simple things just in case a particular situation that makes it easy for anyone to screw me over arises.
    - gonational 8y ago
      OK, let’s see if we can think of one solution to that problem… Oh! Enforce existing anti-trust laws! This, plus the fact that the increasingly monopolistic reality of ISP in the United States is a direct result of overregulation. We don’t need more laws. We need to enforce some of the most basic laws that have existed fore more than a century.
      - snackbugs 8y ago
        In your opinion, what is the perfect number of laws anyone should have? 10^4? 10^5?
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        Unregulated capitalism by no means naturally prevents large monopolies being formed. That's why the government got involved in "trust-busting" in the first place.
  - smnrchrds 8y ago
    > Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. If Tesla's business model proves successful, all other car makers will copy it, and then it doesn't matter which brand you buy. Look at the TV market. You technically have the choice not to buy a "Smart TV," which sells your info to god-knows how many third-parties and spies on you 24/7. But good luck finding one. Sony, Samsung, LG? They all have the same spyware features. Your only option is to buy brandless Chinese TVs with terrible picture and worse sound quality. How long until all manufacturers start acting like Tesla? What choice will we have then? Start walking everywhere like our ancient ancestors?
    - 8y ago
- matte_black 8y ago
  It still does.
yumraj 8y ago
Can a Tesla owner comment it they signed some sort of T&C related to this data? I wonder can Tesla be sued for revealing this data without owners' consent.
- danso 8y ago
  Tesla's privacy policy is worded to allow these kinds of disclosures: https://www.tesla.com/about/legal https://www.tesla.com/about/legal > Tesla may transfer and disclose information, including information that may or may not personally identify you, to third parties to comply with a legal obligation (including, but not limited to, subpoenas);...to verify or enforce our policies and procedures;...to prevent or stop activity we may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, illegal, unethical or legally actionable; or to protect the rights, property, safety, or security of our products and services, Tesla, third parties, visitors, or the public, as determined by us in our sole discretion.
  - tjoff 8y ago
    Is that even valid? They obviously can write anything they want but that doesn't make it right or legal. Is only the owner allowed to drive a Tesla? Do any other drivers have to sign a document on the dashboard before starting?
olivermarks 8y ago
Accompanying this tight information control your Tesla can only be repaired at a Tesla dealership, with tight control over parts and labor prices. https://gas2.org/2015/01/06/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-looks-like-on-a-tesla-model-s/ https://gas2.org/2015/01/06/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-loo... and lots of forum posts out there on this
- s2g 8y ago
  Yeah, Tesla is as guilty as anyone as pushing forward the destruction of the concept of owning the stuff you buy.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  A bunch of horror stories of months-long turnarounds for fender-benders too. https://jalopnik.com/teslas-potential-body-shop-backlog-nightmare-1793269803 https://jalopnik.com/teslas-potential-body-shop-backlog-nigh...
- MentallyRetired 8y ago
  This is exactly what I'm talking about. Most of the people looking at this picture aren't qualified to understand WHY it's so expensive. That gash has torn through single-piece sheet metal and likely into the subframe. There's probably subframe damage to some degree. You can't just replace rear quarter panels. If they were to do it the cheap way and give him his car back, he'd complain that it was driving sideways and blame Tesla for that, too. So many uneducated people out there thinking their opinions are as valuable as facts. This is what happens when that concept clashes with reality.
xvf22 8y ago
I guess the data is built into the price of a Tesla? Would be nice if there was an option to pay not to be so heavily tracked.
- gilrain 8y ago
  Or to be citizen of a government that gave a damn.
- kolpa 8y ago
  The could price the data at $1M, a price no one would pay.
mannykannot 8y ago
> If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault... Indeed. It is disturbing that Tesla is not in the slightest bit concerned by how obvious it is that it is lying about its motives, as that indicates that it does not see any downside from doing so.
sxates 8y ago
This only seems to happen for accidents that turn into national news, speculating that Tesla was at fault (or with drivers actively accusing them of fault). Their response is (understandably I think) to defend themselves when they can show they weren't at fault. I'd assume that if you have an accident and don't make it a media story, they don't publish your driving errors.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  So something that is entirely outside of your control may determine if Tesla shames you in front of millions of people and violates your privacy? That's the defense you're arguing? Plus Tesla never releases the crash data, they release select snippets that make them look good. For example, the famous "six seconds" claim in the barrier incident but absolutely zero data on their automatic emergency braking's actions, what autopilot was doing, what sensors detected, or any of their other systems.
  - danso 8y ago
    Worth noting that one of the issues is Tesla's data, such as sensing hand placement, might inherently be problematic. As r/teslamotors users pointed out in the wake of Tesla's response to the Utah crash, AutoPilot apparently has false negative problems: failing to detect when hands on the wheels: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8jz5tl/tesla_reports_from_utah_firetruck_crash/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8jz5tl/tesla_r... > Ok so here's what bugs the shit out of me: The overwhelming majority of the time that my car nags me to put my hand on the wheel, my hand's already on the wheel, I'm just not applying enough torque for the car to "see" that because my left elbow is resting on the window sill and my hand is resting on the 9oclock position. So I give it a quick wiggle and then we're friends again. This means the car logged a "no hands" event. In the case of the fire truck, the driver pretty much admitted to fault. But what about the California man (i.e. the "six seconds" incident) who died by running into a median? We don't know for sure if his hands were on or off, or when, or if the car properly detected it. Tesla was kicked off the NTSB investigation for releasing data. Tesla's argument was that it had the right to make a defense, but I think it's reasonable to argue that NTSB's rule is to prevent such selective release and framing of data: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180412.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180412.as...
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
I am still a bit amazed that we haven't had a major lawsuit that heavily fines/restricts most of Tesla's behavior at this point. They seem to think a car that they've sold is still theirs, and that they can do these sorts of things. Another big one is using the Autopilot sensors to collect data to send back to Tesla even if you don't buy or use Autopilot, or their refusal to "activate" a salvaged vehicle that you legally have a title for if they don't like how it was repaired or who serviced it. Cars are a significant property which, unlike a lot of other items, even comes with a proper title of ownership, it's hard to imagine any of Tesla's behavior regarding the car's data, activation practices, etc. would hold up in a court of law. Given that most people who can afford Teslas can afford lawyers, I'm kinda surprised nobody's gone for the payday.

jopsen 8y ago

GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)

pwagland 8y ago
Well, I'm (living as an) European, so I actually support GDPR anyway. But yes, I always wondered exactly what grounds they used to publish some of this data.
- Negitivefrags 8y ago
  I'm curious why you think that being European implies you also support GDPR.
kodablah 8y ago
You have succinctly, albeit unintentionally, summed up why the GDPR is often seen as bad. The way I read it "the end goal is good and/or some part of it is good, so it is all good, right?" Requiring transparency requirements of companies like Tesla is laudable without a bunch of baggage and large sweeping changes. Unfortunately people often can't see the difference between intent and implementation and assume you are for both or against both.
gonational 8y ago
No. You know what sounds nice? Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.
- nerbert 8y ago
  Sure, very simple logic. That is of course until Comcast becomes the only internet provider in your area. I prefer my gov to have my back on those simple things just in case a particular situation that makes it easy for anyone to screw me over arises.
  - gonational 8y ago
    OK, let’s see if we can think of one solution to that problem… Oh! Enforce existing anti-trust laws! This, plus the fact that the increasingly monopolistic reality of ISP in the United States is a direct result of overregulation. We don’t need more laws. We need to enforce some of the most basic laws that have existed fore more than a century.
    - snackbugs 8y ago
      In your opinion, what is the perfect number of laws anyone should have? 10^4? 10^5?
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      Unregulated capitalism by no means naturally prevents large monopolies being formed. That's why the government got involved in "trust-busting" in the first place.
- smnrchrds 8y ago
  > Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. If Tesla's business model proves successful, all other car makers will copy it, and then it doesn't matter which brand you buy. Look at the TV market. You technically have the choice not to buy a "Smart TV," which sells your info to god-knows how many third-parties and spies on you 24/7. But good luck finding one. Sony, Samsung, LG? They all have the same spyware features. Your only option is to buy brandless Chinese TVs with terrible picture and worse sound quality. How long until all manufacturers start acting like Tesla? What choice will we have then? Start walking everywhere like our ancient ancestors?
  - 8y ago
matte_black 8y ago
It still does.

yumraj 8y ago

Can a Tesla owner comment it they signed some sort of T&C related to this data? I wonder can Tesla be sued for revealing this data without owners' consent.

danso 8y ago
Tesla's privacy policy is worded to allow these kinds of disclosures: https://www.tesla.com/about/legal https://www.tesla.com/about/legal > Tesla may transfer and disclose information, including information that may or may not personally identify you, to third parties to comply with a legal obligation (including, but not limited to, subpoenas);...to verify or enforce our policies and procedures;...to prevent or stop activity we may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, illegal, unethical or legally actionable; or to protect the rights, property, safety, or security of our products and services, Tesla, third parties, visitors, or the public, as determined by us in our sole discretion.
- tjoff 8y ago
  Is that even valid? They obviously can write anything they want but that doesn't make it right or legal. Is only the owner allowed to drive a Tesla? Do any other drivers have to sign a document on the dashboard before starting?

olivermarks 8y ago

Accompanying this tight information control your Tesla can only be repaired at a Tesla dealership, with tight control over parts and labor prices. https://gas2.org/2015/01/06/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-looks-like-on-a-tesla-model-s/ https://gas2.org/2015/01/06/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-loo... and lots of forum posts out there on this

s2g 8y ago
Yeah, Tesla is as guilty as anyone as pushing forward the destruction of the concept of owning the stuff you buy.
emodendroket 8y ago
A bunch of horror stories of months-long turnarounds for fender-benders too. https://jalopnik.com/teslas-potential-body-shop-backlog-nightmare-1793269803 https://jalopnik.com/teslas-potential-body-shop-backlog-nigh...
MentallyRetired 8y ago
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Most of the people looking at this picture aren't qualified to understand WHY it's so expensive. That gash has torn through single-piece sheet metal and likely into the subframe. There's probably subframe damage to some degree. You can't just replace rear quarter panels. If they were to do it the cheap way and give him his car back, he'd complain that it was driving sideways and blame Tesla for that, too. So many uneducated people out there thinking their opinions are as valuable as facts. This is what happens when that concept clashes with reality.

xvf22 8y ago

I guess the data is built into the price of a Tesla? Would be nice if there was an option to pay not to be so heavily tracked.

gilrain 8y ago
Or to be citizen of a government that gave a damn.
kolpa 8y ago
The could price the data at $1M, a price no one would pay.

mannykannot 8y ago

> If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault... Indeed. It is disturbing that Tesla is not in the slightest bit concerned by how obvious it is that it is lying about its motives, as that indicates that it does not see any downside from doing so.

sxates 8y ago

This only seems to happen for accidents that turn into national news, speculating that Tesla was at fault (or with drivers actively accusing them of fault). Their response is (understandably I think) to defend themselves when they can show they weren't at fault. I'd assume that if you have an accident and don't make it a media story, they don't publish your driving errors.

Someone1234 8y ago
So something that is entirely outside of your control may determine if Tesla shames you in front of millions of people and violates your privacy? That's the defense you're arguing? Plus Tesla never releases the crash data, they release select snippets that make them look good. For example, the famous "six seconds" claim in the barrier incident but absolutely zero data on their automatic emergency braking's actions, what autopilot was doing, what sensors detected, or any of their other systems.
- danso 8y ago
  Worth noting that one of the issues is Tesla's data, such as sensing hand placement, might inherently be problematic. As r/teslamotors users pointed out in the wake of Tesla's response to the Utah crash, AutoPilot apparently has false negative problems: failing to detect when hands on the wheels: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8jz5tl/tesla_reports_from_utah_firetruck_crash/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8jz5tl/tesla_r... > Ok so here's what bugs the shit out of me: The overwhelming majority of the time that my car nags me to put my hand on the wheel, my hand's already on the wheel, I'm just not applying enough torque for the car to "see" that because my left elbow is resting on the window sill and my hand is resting on the 9oclock position. So I give it a quick wiggle and then we're friends again. This means the car logged a "no hands" event. In the case of the fire truck, the driver pretty much admitted to fault. But what about the California man (i.e. the "six seconds" incident) who died by running into a median? We don't know for sure if his hands were on or off, or when, or if the car properly detected it. Tesla was kicked off the NTSB investigation for releasing data. Tesla's argument was that it had the right to make a defense, but I think it's reasonable to argue that NTSB's rule is to prevent such selective release and framing of data: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180412.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180412.as...

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

I am still a bit amazed that we haven't had a major lawsuit that heavily fines/restricts most of Tesla's behavior at this point. They seem to think a car that they've sold is still theirs, and that they can do these sorts of things. Another big one is using the Autopilot sensors to collect data to send back to Tesla even if you don't buy or use Autopilot, or their refusal to "activate" a salvaged vehicle that you legally have a title for if they don't like how it was repaired or who serviced it. Cars are a significant property which, unlike a lot of other items, even comes with a proper title of ownership, it's hard to imagine any of Tesla's behavior regarding the car's data, activation practices, etc. would hold up in a court of law. Given that most people who can afford Teslas can afford lawyers, I'm kinda surprised nobody's gone for the payday.