5 ms·

Oh boy, I was so excited to get a Tesla when the time finally came, but if they're still pulling this crap when that happens, guess I'm getting a Benz instead.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Try to get the data out of your GM or Ford airbag flash storage device (any vehicle with a data logger paired to the airbag subsystem, which is most cars on the road) and see how similar the process is. More “journalistic” nonsense. I agree they have a lot of legitimate issues (cash flow, scaling, retention, working conditions, process maturity, overpromising) to deal with, but can’t journalists focus on those instead of clickbait? Sidenote: if you take issue with this, sponsor a federal law to fix the problem through your legislator
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. But this? Asking me to take personal responsibility with no legal recourse? This is the line they can't ask me to cross. If this is fake news, fine, it'll come out. If it's not, then sorry Tesla, can't do it.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    That’s for each consumer to decide of course. I bought my Model S fully knowing what I was getting into. I consider them holding themselves to a higher standard, but as in politics, you can’t find someone who agrees with you 100% in office. Have to compromise, and this isn’t a hill I care to die on. As I stated above, it’s a public policy issue, not Tesla specific. > if you take issue with this, sponsor a federal law to fix the problem through your legislator
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      I fail to see how Tesla's refusal to release data is a public policy issue and that legislation is required to fix that state of affairs. They could, you know, just release the data. Then the onus is on the rest of the industry. More to the point, Tesla's wish to be seen as a market disrupter is only going to hold as much water for me as their willingness to do it when it counts. This is one of those "when it counts" moments for me.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        If they don't release the data, and other automakers don't release the data, it's industry standard behavior. The onus is on you, the consumer, to ask for regulation to fix the behavior if you want it fixed; not complain specifically about Tesla's behavior.
        netsharc 8y ago
        "We will be disruptive when we can seem to be more consumer-friendly unless it makes us look bad, at that point we'll just say 'that's the industry standard, sorry you're SOL!'".
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Can't help unrealistic expectations. If you don't like the policy, don't buy the car. I mean, it's a bit silly, no? Everyone complaining in this thread while Tesla churns out thousands of vehicles a week to a backlog of consumers willing to wait at least another year for their vehicle. To you, it might be an issue. To those who matter (Tesla investors, employees, and customers), it isn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The market has spoken.
        cfadvan 8y ago
        The Tesla PR machine has done everything it can to build hype and expectations, that didn’t come out of nowhere. As for don’t buy the car, given the increased rate of refunds, clearly that’s the trend. It is a bit silly though, for a business with a sky-high market cap to adopt a take it or leave it attitude about the sales they so desperately need. The market also speaks by shorting Tesla, and with TSLA volatility on par with a cryptocurrency.
  - kinsomo 8y ago
    > Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. They're not. They restrict access to the service manuals behind a ridiculously expensive subscription that's only provided in states where it's legally required. It costs $30 a day or $3000 a year. Service manuals for other cars cost ~$50 for a hardcopy. https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-replacement-parts/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-repl... Tesla's attitude is almost like you don't own your car, you're just leasing it in perpetuity from Tesla for a one-time fee.
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      I'm fine with that, just don't ask me to take personal liability for your mistakes. That's the line this crosses. I expect society to eventually fix the repair issue and if it doesn't, I'm not too worried about getting priced out of the repair market after my warranty expires. This affects me personally.
- danso 8y ago
  Can you point to an instance where GM/Ford published a user's data in a press release to defend itself?
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    Are you saying that it's a bad thing for Tesla to defend itself with its collected data?
    - danso 8y ago
      No, but based on reading the article, it seems like Tesla owners are particularly engaged on this issue because they've seen how Tesla divulges user data to the public to defend themselves.
    - bo1024 8y ago
      I would absolutely say that, especially if they turn around and refuse to release the data on other occasions for supposedly "privacy" reasons.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ovao 8y ago
Will Mercedes Benz release your collected crash data to you?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Doesn't matter. They have an established history and have been making cars for almost a hundred years. I drive a Mazda now. If it's looking like drive-by-wire technology is too dangerous, I'll just keep driving that and hope my cruise control doesn't decide to cause an accident.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ovao 8y ago
    I don't quite follow the logic that it doesn't matter. If the reason for someone not to buy a Tesla is because they do (A), why is the alternative to buy from another manufacturer that also does (A)?
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      I don't need a reason to not buy Tesla, I need a reason to buy Tesla. Belief in Musk's vision and the awesomeness of the car was that reason. Without both of those things being true, there's no reason to buy something that new and untested. It's like asking me to buy a Kickstarter car.
      - ovao 8y ago
        Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with crash data, the car itself doesn't change. That might be nuanced a bit by what Tesla can do so easily with OTA updates, but just speaking generally. I have no real dog in this fight though. Any reasons you have to choose one car over the other are your own, and it's not my intent to criticize one choice or the other. The reasoning here just seems slightly difficult to follow.
stephengillie 8y ago
My Camry Hybrid has a "black box", but I'm pretty sure I can't get the data.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Try to get the data out of your GM or Ford airbag flash storage device (any vehicle with a data logger paired to the airbag subsystem, which is most cars on the road) and see how similar the process is. More “journalistic” nonsense. I agree they have a lot of legitimate issues (cash flow, scaling, retention, working conditions, process maturity, overpromising) to deal with, but can’t journalists focus on those instead of clickbait? Sidenote: if you take issue with this, sponsor a federal law to fix the problem through your legislator

vinceguidry 8y ago
Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. But this? Asking me to take personal responsibility with no legal recourse? This is the line they can't ask me to cross. If this is fake news, fine, it'll come out. If it's not, then sorry Tesla, can't do it.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  That’s for each consumer to decide of course. I bought my Model S fully knowing what I was getting into. I consider them holding themselves to a higher standard, but as in politics, you can’t find someone who agrees with you 100% in office. Have to compromise, and this isn’t a hill I care to die on. As I stated above, it’s a public policy issue, not Tesla specific. > if you take issue with this, sponsor a federal law to fix the problem through your legislator
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    I fail to see how Tesla's refusal to release data is a public policy issue and that legislation is required to fix that state of affairs. They could, you know, just release the data. Then the onus is on the rest of the industry. More to the point, Tesla's wish to be seen as a market disrupter is only going to hold as much water for me as their willingness to do it when it counts. This is one of those "when it counts" moments for me.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      If they don't release the data, and other automakers don't release the data, it's industry standard behavior. The onus is on you, the consumer, to ask for regulation to fix the behavior if you want it fixed; not complain specifically about Tesla's behavior.
      - netsharc 8y ago
        "We will be disruptive when we can seem to be more consumer-friendly unless it makes us look bad, at that point we'll just say 'that's the industry standard, sorry you're SOL!'".
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Can't help unrealistic expectations. If you don't like the policy, don't buy the car. I mean, it's a bit silly, no? Everyone complaining in this thread while Tesla churns out thousands of vehicles a week to a backlog of consumers willing to wait at least another year for their vehicle. To you, it might be an issue. To those who matter (Tesla investors, employees, and customers), it isn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The market has spoken.
        cfadvan 8y ago
        The Tesla PR machine has done everything it can to build hype and expectations, that didn’t come out of nowhere. As for don’t buy the car, given the increased rate of refunds, clearly that’s the trend. It is a bit silly though, for a business with a sky-high market cap to adopt a take it or leave it attitude about the sales they so desperately need. The market also speaks by shorting Tesla, and with TSLA volatility on par with a cryptocurrency.
- kinsomo 8y ago
  > Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. They're not. They restrict access to the service manuals behind a ridiculously expensive subscription that's only provided in states where it's legally required. It costs $30 a day or $3000 a year. Service manuals for other cars cost ~$50 for a hardcopy. https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-replacement-parts/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-repl... Tesla's attitude is almost like you don't own your car, you're just leasing it in perpetuity from Tesla for a one-time fee.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    I'm fine with that, just don't ask me to take personal liability for your mistakes. That's the line this crosses. I expect society to eventually fix the repair issue and if it doesn't, I'm not too worried about getting priced out of the repair market after my warranty expires. This affects me personally.
danso 8y ago
Can you point to an instance where GM/Ford published a user's data in a press release to defend itself?
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  Are you saying that it's a bad thing for Tesla to defend itself with its collected data?
  - danso 8y ago
    No, but based on reading the article, it seems like Tesla owners are particularly engaged on this issue because they've seen how Tesla divulges user data to the public to defend themselves.
  - bo1024 8y ago
    I would absolutely say that, especially if they turn around and refuse to release the data on other occasions for supposedly "privacy" reasons.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

ovao 8y ago

Will Mercedes Benz release your collected crash data to you?

vinceguidry 8y ago
Doesn't matter. They have an established history and have been making cars for almost a hundred years. I drive a Mazda now. If it's looking like drive-by-wire technology is too dangerous, I'll just keep driving that and hope my cruise control doesn't decide to cause an accident.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ovao 8y ago
  I don't quite follow the logic that it doesn't matter. If the reason for someone not to buy a Tesla is because they do (A), why is the alternative to buy from another manufacturer that also does (A)?
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    I don't need a reason to not buy Tesla, I need a reason to buy Tesla. Belief in Musk's vision and the awesomeness of the car was that reason. Without both of those things being true, there's no reason to buy something that new and untested. It's like asking me to buy a Kickstarter car.
    - ovao 8y ago
      Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with crash data, the car itself doesn't change. That might be nuanced a bit by what Tesla can do so easily with OTA updates, but just speaking generally. I have no real dog in this fight though. Any reasons you have to choose one car over the other are your own, and it's not my intent to criticize one choice or the other. The reasoning here just seems slightly difficult to follow.

stephengillie 8y ago

My Camry Hybrid has a "black box", but I'm pretty sure I can't get the data.