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What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this otherwi

by berdon 8y ago

What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data? Surely the data, itself, isn't very helpful compared to the analysis of the data? Note: My question is in no way trying to argue against the consumer owning the data. I'm just wondering how this kind of data could be useful without access to the means to analyze it. Edit: Not sure why all the down votes. I explicitly tried to indicate I was asking a question about the data value and avoiding the ownership question. I, personally, think the data should be the device owner's property. But my opinion on ownership and my question wasn't related to the ownership.

danso 8y ago
In the cases mentioned, it's not the "average consumer", but the owners who get into crashes and who presumably have a great incentive to figure out what's needed to analyze the data. It's not as if there's only one objective way to analyze the data.
- berdon 8y ago
  There is only one objective way to analyze data if all it is in a bunch of meaningless numbers without context. That was what my question was about: if the data dump from tesla consists of arrays of numbers for state data for some ML algorithm, how would anyone other than Tesla analyze that?
- Maybestring 8y ago
  If the incentive is to support a law suit, then getting the discovery order was something they were going to need to do anyway.
kalms 8y ago
You don't usually own the plane that crashed. Unless if you're Elon Musk of course.
- berdon 8y ago
  I very specifically pointed out that my comparison to the aircraft was solely with regards to the data itself - and not around ownership.
brandonsometig 8y ago
Without access to the data we don't know how useful it is full stop.
- berdon 8y ago
  My question didn't imply you don't have access to it - my question was "if you have access to it" and making general, technical, assumptions on it's likely composition - how could/would it be useful to the layman or even a technical person.
bjpbakker 8y ago
> What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? We can also reverse this question: why would Tesla hide this type of data from their customers so intensely? One reason that comes to mind on both questions, is that customer's (or someone on their behalf) are able to review if the crash is due to software malfunction. > isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data Most people don't buy (hence own) a plane but buy a ticket with an airplane company instead. The airline company actually does get to access the black box data in case of a crash. So do the authorities.
- Navarr 8y ago
  > why would Tesla hide this type of data from their customers so intensely? To give them the benefit of the doubt: * Do you consider this diagnostic data to be highly personal, worth protecting heavily? (Does it include GPS?) * Do you trust your engineers to properly verify the identity of a person before granting this potentially highly personal data? * Does your legal department trust your engineers that much? * Do you have the resources/desire to lay out a foundational system of getting that identity verification and granting that data? If you answered "No" to any of those questions, you might very well want to say "We will do it if it is required of us by a court order." While it is unideal, it's not nonsensical.
  - danso 8y ago
    But companies like Facebook and Google also have policies that call for only releasing data to government via court order. And both companies allow users to do bulk downloads of their own data.
- berdon 8y ago
  This isn't reversing the question - it's asking an entirely different question. My question was about the value of the data to a consumer. Presumably, this data is a mixture of location history, sensor/actuator logs (maybe human readable?), and maybe various state data for ML algorithms. Depending on the human "readability" of this data - how could someone without proprietary knowledge find any value in it? That's my question - which is more leading towards "Tesla won't give drivers a means to analyze their crashes" which is a much harder pill to swallow as a Tesla driver, law enforcement officer, etc.

by berdon 8y ago

danso 8y ago

In the cases mentioned, it's not the "average consumer", but the owners who get into crashes and who presumably have a great incentive to figure out what's needed to analyze the data. It's not as if there's only one objective way to analyze the data.

berdon 8y ago
There is only one objective way to analyze data if all it is in a bunch of meaningless numbers without context. That was what my question was about: if the data dump from tesla consists of arrays of numbers for state data for some ML algorithm, how would anyone other than Tesla analyze that?
Maybestring 8y ago
If the incentive is to support a law suit, then getting the discovery order was something they were going to need to do anyway.

kalms 8y ago

You don't usually own the plane that crashed. Unless if you're Elon Musk of course.

berdon 8y ago
I very specifically pointed out that my comparison to the aircraft was solely with regards to the data itself - and not around ownership.

brandonsometig 8y ago

Without access to the data we don't know how useful it is full stop.

berdon 8y ago
My question didn't imply you don't have access to it - my question was "if you have access to it" and making general, technical, assumptions on it's likely composition - how could/would it be useful to the layman or even a technical person.

bjpbakker 8y ago

> What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? We can also reverse this question: why would Tesla hide this type of data from their customers so intensely? One reason that comes to mind on both questions, is that customer's (or someone on their behalf) are able to review if the crash is due to software malfunction. > isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data Most people don't buy (hence own) a plane but buy a ticket with an airplane company instead. The airline company actually does get to access the black box data in case of a crash. So do the authorities.

Navarr 8y ago
> why would Tesla hide this type of data from their customers so intensely? To give them the benefit of the doubt: * Do you consider this diagnostic data to be highly personal, worth protecting heavily? (Does it include GPS?) * Do you trust your engineers to properly verify the identity of a person before granting this potentially highly personal data? * Does your legal department trust your engineers that much? * Do you have the resources/desire to lay out a foundational system of getting that identity verification and granting that data? If you answered "No" to any of those questions, you might very well want to say "We will do it if it is required of us by a court order." While it is unideal, it's not nonsensical.
- danso 8y ago
  But companies like Facebook and Google also have policies that call for only releasing data to government via court order. And both companies allow users to do bulk downloads of their own data.
berdon 8y ago
This isn't reversing the question - it's asking an entirely different question. My question was about the value of the data to a consumer. Presumably, this data is a mixture of location history, sensor/actuator logs (maybe human readable?), and maybe various state data for ML algorithms. Depending on the human "readability" of this data - how could someone without proprietary knowledge find any value in it? That's my question - which is more leading towards "Tesla won't give drivers a means to analyze their crashes" which is a much harder pill to swallow as a Tesla driver, law enforcement officer, etc.